1. Joined
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    16334
    03 Oct '11 19:57
    This must have been posted before but as I don't have the patience to look for it I'll just post again. It is a solution that is widely accepted everywhere except RHP.
  2. SubscriberPonderable
    chemist
    Linkenheim
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    05 Oct '11 13:49
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    This must have been posted before but as I don't have the patience to look for it I'll just post again. It is a solution that is widely accepted everywhere except RHP.
    Indeed it has been suggested before, I think Swiss Gambit has worked out the details.

    And I support this.
  3. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    05 Oct '11 18:05
    Whats a ratings floor?
  4. Joined
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    06 Oct '11 18:53
    Originally posted by venda
    Whats a ratings floor?
    It is like putting a floor under your rating... so that if you suddenly timeout or resign a bunch of games your rating will only fall so far.
  5. THORNINYOURSIDE
    Joined
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    06 Oct '11 19:27
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    This must have been posted before but as I don't have the patience to look for it I'll just post again. It is a solution that is widely accepted everywhere except RHP.
    How would you allocate points against a player in a tournament where they timed out say 10 games?

    For instance, an open tournament with an 1720 rated player with a rating floor of 1700.

    If they timeout against a bunch of 1200/1400 players they will lose at present 20+ points per game lost, so after 10 games timed out they should be around 1500 or so.

    However with a floor their rating can't drop below 1700 so every player who times them out once the rating drops to the floor gains MORE point because of the floor, as their win will be against a 1700 rated player not someone who should be at 1550.
  6. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    06 Oct '11 23:15
    Perhaps the whole ratings system is floored(sorry -couldn't resist)
  7. Joined
    10 Jan '08
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    10271
    07 Oct '11 04:42
    Originally posted by adramforall
    How would you allocate points against a player in a tournament where they timed out say 10 games?

    For instance, an open tournament with an 1720 rated player with a rating floor of 1700.

    If they timeout against a bunch of 1200/1400 players they will lose at present 20+ points per game lost, so after 10 games timed out they should be around 1500 or ...[text shortened]... the floor, as their win will be against a 1700 rated player not someone who should be at 1550.
    What's your point? That's the general idea behind rating floors. The 1300/1400 guys get the points from beating a higher ranked player and the opponents of the 1700 guy don't get screwed when xe returns. I don't know about you but i'm not a fan of playing 1100 guys when they should be 1900.
  8. THORNINYOURSIDE
    Joined
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    07 Oct '11 09:21
    Originally posted by Trev33
    What's your point? That's the general idea behind rating floors. The 1300/1400 guys get the points from beating a higher ranked player and the opponents of the 1700 guy don't get screwed when xe returns. I don't know about you but i'm not a fan of playing 1100 guys when they should be 1900.
    If a lowly 1300/1400 rated player beats, by timeout, someone who is "floored" at 1800 they will gain a heap of points, artificially bumping their rating. This screws them up for future banded tournaments.

    This affects them more if they take several timeouts wins against much high rated opponents. 6 win @ 24 points bumps the rating by 144 points.

    A player who is playing at his rating highest of say 1456 with a current TER of 1356 will now find themselves bumped to a rating of 1600 and a TER of 1500.

    Effectively they can only enter banded tournaments at a level beyond what they have been playing at, due to the inflated rating obtained due to timeouts against a rating floored opponent.

    The higher rated player who times out, doesn't give a toss, as it won't affect them since they can never drop below their floor.

    I avoid playing 1100 rated guys that should be 1900.
  9. Joined
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    6899
    07 Oct '11 12:48
    Originally posted by Trev33
    I don't know about you but i'm not a fan of playing 1100 guys when they should be 1900.
    I'd much rather play an 1100 guy who should be 1900 than a 1900 guy who should be 1100. I learn more that way. I get to play chess, and that's why I'm here, not to get a four-digit number to put behind my name. I dunno, perhaps the people who complain about getting a hit to their rating only want to get a rating, and don't want to learn to play better chess.

    Richard
  10. Subscribershortcircuit
    The Energizer
    where you want to be
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    07 Oct '11 16:32
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    I'd much rather play an 1100 guy who should be 1900 than a 1900 guy who should be 1100. I learn more that way. I get to play chess, and that's why I'm here, not to get a four-digit number to put behind my name. I dunno, perhaps the people who complain about getting a hit to their rating only want to get a rating, and don't want to learn to play better chess.

    Richard
    True enough, but I don't think the argument is as much about defending anyone's
    rating per se, as much as it is to come up with a reasonable measure of a player's
    talent, relative to some measure that allows a more equitable basis for pairing players in tournaments, clan matches, etc....

    There are some pretty epic sandbaggers on this site. They know who they are.

    While we are at it, how can we stop engine use/abuse?

    What the hell does a person gain if they have to cheat to win?
    What a bunch of losers.
    I am not a great player, but I fathom that I could beat several of the engine users
    in an OTB match up where they have no aid.
  11. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    07 Oct '11 19:12
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    True enough, but I don't think the argument is as much about defending anyone's
    rating per se, as much as it is to come up with a reasonable measure of a player's
    talent, relative to some measure that allows a more equitable basis for pairing players in tournaments, clan matches, etc....

    There are some pretty epic sandbaggers on this site. They kn ...[text shortened]... hom that I could beat several of the engine users
    in an OTB match up where they have no aid.
    Engine use/abuse is a difficult one.
    I can only think of one way to stop it.
    If you think your opponent is using a chess computer or engine,plug the moves into an engine yourself, move(without using the engine obviously!!) and watch the responses.
    If his subsequent moves match the engine for a number of moves message him and ask if he's using a chess engine.
    This may shame him into abandoning using it in your game.
    However if he persists in matching a typical engine response everytime, keep the evidence and after , say 10 moves report him to the admins quoting the "evidence"
    Sandbaggers is not as difficult.If a players rating and historical rating vary by a vast amount,don't play him!!
    I could name a few "suspects" I have seen while searching for challenges for my clansmen/women but as you say -they know who they are!!
  12. Subscribershortcircuit
    The Energizer
    where you want to be
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    08 Oct '11 15:39
    Originally posted by venda
    Engine use/abuse is a difficult one.
    I can only think of one way to stop it.
    If you think your opponent is using a chess computer or engine,plug the moves into an engine yourself, move(without using the engine obviously!!) and watch the responses.
    If his subsequent moves match the engine for a number of moves message him and ask if he's using a chess engin ...[text shortened]... le searching for challenges for my clansmen/women but as you say -they know who they are!!
    Why should I have to invest in an engine in order to check an opponent who is using
    an engine in a game we are playing that is supposed to be for fun?

    What does a cheater gain in winning a game by cheating?
    Do they gain some convoluted bragging rights?
    Are they so lacking in moral character that this is their redemption?
    Online chess is weak anyway. Play it OTB with no outside aid at all, then we'll know if
    you are any good at all.

    There are just too many aids in online chess to take it seriously.
    It is a shame really, but it is the nature of the beast.
  13. Joined
    07 Jun '05
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    5301
    08 Oct '11 16:17
    Originally posted by venda
    If you think your opponent is using a chess computer or engine,plug the moves into an engine yourself, move(without using the engine obviously!!) and watch the responses.
    If his subsequent moves match the engine for a number of moves message him and ask if he's using a chess engine.
    This may shame him into abandoning using it in your game.
    However if he pe ...[text shortened]... keep the evidence and after , say 10 moves report him to the admins quoting the "evidence"
    Bad advice. You are suggesting that someone use an engine to prepare their moves. Don't.

    If you were to blunder, you get to see the engine's stunning response, and you make a different move. Blunder checking is just as much engine abuse as looking for suggestions.

    Check the game when it is done, not before. And then report to the admins, if there is evidence.
  14. Joined
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    16334
    09 Oct '11 06:021 edit
    You are all stating fluff.

    If a player plays an x amount of games and his average rating is y then when the player comes back you want to decrease the amount added to x to get back to rating y as much as practically possible. This would create more balance and accuracy to the ratings system. It may at first cause inflation but it doesn't matter if a 1400 becomes a 1600 if a 1600 also becomes an 1800. In a perfect system rating y would be constantly equal to the players skill and would only change at the same rate that the players skill changes.
  15. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
    Joined
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    09 Oct '11 13:27
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    Why should I have to invest in an engine in order to check an opponent who is using
    an engine in a game we are playing that is supposed to be for fun?

    What does a cheater gain in winning a game by cheating?
    Do they gain some convoluted bragging rights?
    Are they so lacking in moral character that this is their redemption?
    Online chess is weak anyw ...[text shortened]... in online chess to take it seriously.
    It is a shame really, but it is the nature of the beast.
    I would imagine free engines are available online but I don't know 'cos I've never looked for one and I don't agree with the site rules which say you can use opening theory either!!
    Otherwise , I agree with all your other points.
    In theory , playing on here and using the "analyze board" facility weakens your OTB game where no such facility is available.
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