1. R
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    11 Jan '18 04:267 edits
    The two Thessalonian letters were written to the local church (the assembly and community of Christians) in Thessalonia. It is not primarily general instructions to a society per se.

    The reason for Paul's exhortation about work was because some were assuming that because Christ was soon to come they need not perform their normal responsibility to labor.

    "For we hear of some walking among you disorderly, doing no work at all, but being busybodies.

    Now such ones we charge and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work with quietness and eat their own bread.

    But you, brothers, do not lose heart in doing good. And if anyone does not obey our word through this letter, mark this one so as not to mingle with him, in order that he may be ashamed.

    Yet do not regard him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother." (2 Thess. 3:11-13)

    Paul gives himself as an example to the Ephesian elders in Acts 21. Because he was a balanced servant of God, the other side of helping the weaker in the local church is shown by his example.

    "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that these hands have ministered to my needs and to those who are with me.

    In all things I have shown you by example that toiling in this way we ought to support the weak and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." (Acts 20:33-35)


    This is the same man who wrote to the other local church that all there should work and not just sit around waiting for Jesus to come.
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    11 Jan '18 04:551 edit
    So you agree that at least within the local congregation that the church should not provide food for members who refuse to work?

    If they want free food they need to give up membership?
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Jan '18 11:22
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So you agree that at least within the local congregation that the church should not provide food for members who refuse to work?

    If they want free food they need to give up membership?
    Seriously, what is wrong with you?

    "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -- Matthew 25:40, KJV

    Has this no meaning for you?
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    11 Jan '18 11:36
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Seriously, what is wrong with you?

    "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -- Matthew 25:40, KJV

    Has this no meaning for you?
    It's not any surprise that different quotations from different parts of the Bible don't sit with each other neatly or even coherently sometimes. I can understand the meaning you glean from Matthew 25:40 without you spelling it out to me.

    But what meaning does 2 Thessalonians 3:10 have for you?
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Jan '18 11:48
    Originally posted by @fmf
    It's not any surprise that different quotations from different parts of the Bible don't sit with each other neatly or even coherently sometimes. I can understand the meaning you glean from Matthew 25:40 without you spelling it out to me.

    But what meaning does 2 Thessalonians 3:10 have for you?
    I think it has meaning for many who post in this forum, frankly.

    "For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies." -- 2 Thessalonians 3:11, KJV
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    11 Jan '18 11:54
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    I think it has meaning for many who post in this forum, frankly.

    "For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies." -- 2 Thessalonians 3:11, KJV
    My question is specifically about 2 Thessalonians 3:10, the thread topic, and not 2 Thessalonians 3:11. I get what Matthew 25:40 means to you, but about 2 Thessalonians 3:10?
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    11 Jan '18 12:49
    Originally posted by @fmf
    It's not any surprise that different quotations from diffe
    rent parts of the Bible don't sit with each other neatly or even coherently sometimes. I can understand the meaning you glean from Matthew 25:40 without you spelling it out to me.

    But what meaning does 2 Thessalonians 3:10 have for you?
    There is no contradiction from a Godly petspective. The lowliest are those who are unable to work. The quote is for those who can work but choose not to work.

    Evidently according to Paul such people exist and I agree with him. Suzi disagrees with him. I take it you agree with Suzi.
  8. R
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    11 Jan '18 23:313 edits
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So you agree that at least within the local congregation that the church should not provide food for members who refuse to work?

    If they want free food they need to give up membership?
    There is no "membership" in the local church.
    You don't "join" a church by getting a "membership".
    This is a concept of degraded Christianity.

    A person is "born" spiritually into the church.
    You "join" the Lion's Club, or the Nights of Columbus, or the YMCA. A man or woman is spiritually born into the Body of Christ.

    A brother in spiritual life may be behaving badly, because he is not following the divine life.
  9. R
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    11 Jan '18 23:341 edit
    What brother Paul exhorted to the Thessalonian church was to admonish the unruly one who would not work, as a brother, yet so that he feels ashamed. It said not to count him as an enemy.

    "And if anyone does not obey our word through this letter, mark this one so as not to mingle with him, in order that he may be ashamed.

    Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." (2 Thess. 2:14,15)


    It is very bad to use the New Testament in the assembly life only as a tool to clearly define who your enemies are.

    The sense of shame can come upon the Christian because of his not wanting to tend to his duty when he is able.
    The sense of shame can also come upon the Christian who is not a cheerful giver and cares too much for marking out who his enemies are in the Body of Christ.

    So we need to grow in grace and be more and more saturated with Christ, Who overcomes with love, grace, wisdom, and endurance.
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    11 Jan '18 23:39
    Originally posted by @sonship
    What brother Paul exhorted to the Thessalonian church was to admonish the unruly one who would not work as a brother, yet so that he feels ashamed. It said not to count him as an enemy.

    [quote] [b] "And if anyone does not obey our word through this letter, mark this one so as not to mingle with him, in order that he may be ashamed.

    Yet do not rega ...[text shortened]... d be more and more saturated with Christ, Who overcomes with love, grace, wisdom, and endurance.
    They are still not allowed to eat.

    Why do you ignore this fact?
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    11 Jan '18 23:40
    Originally posted by @sonship
    There is no "membership" in the local church.
    You don't "join" a church by getting a "membership".
    This is a concept of degraded Christianity.

    A person is "born" spiritually into the church.
    You "join" the Lion's Club, or the Nights of Columbus, or the YMCA. A man or woman is spiritually born into the Body of Christ.

    A brother in spiritual life may be behaving badly, because he is not following the divine life.
    Paul wrote that you are to expel the immoral brother.
  12. R
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    11 Jan '18 23:46
    The exhortation to the Christian to care for the support of his family is strong. The one who refuses to do so can be worse than an unbeliever, Paul says. And he virtually has denied the faith.

    "These things also charge, that they may be without reproach.

    But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." (1 Tim. 5:7,8)


    The more mature brothers should help the negligent one to be touched that he is damaging the Christian testimony towards the world, not to say his family is also perplexed.

    Mostly the older brothers should be a pattern, and example.
    "Let no one despise your youth, but be a pattern to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity." (4:12)


    Timothy was a young man and a young apostle. Paul said, "Let no one despise your youth. You be a good example of a normal and proper Christian man."
  13. R
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    11 Jan '18 23:52
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Paul wrote that you are to expel the immoral brother.
    In other cases he did exhort the local church to remove chronically the sinning one from the fellowship. This is in First Corinthians - the man living lustfully with his mother-in-law.

    He was removed from the church. True.
    In the Second Corinthian letter, apparently he felt ashamed and repented. And he was comforted and brought back into the fellowship.

    Rather than go by a legal flowchart, the local leading ones as elders are responsible for troublesome cases in the local church.

    These kinds of problems force them to rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance and wisdom. And that only goes to the furtherance and building up of the church.

    Usually, the local church cannot go far beyond the spiritual health of its responsible elders. There are exceptions.
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    12 Jan '18 00:01
    Originally posted by @sonship
    In other cases he did exhort the local church to remove chronically the sinning one from the fellowship. This is in First Corinthians - the man living lustfully with his mother-in-law.

    He was removed from the church. True.
    In the Second Corinthian letter, apparently he felt ashamed and repented. And he was comforted and brought back into the fellowship. ...[text shortened]... hurch cannot go far beyond the spiritual health of its responsible elders. There are exceptions.
    So there is membership that can be taken away.

    What about not allowing them to eat.

    The man who was kicked out for having sex with his father's wife stopped doing it. I know the story.

    It amazes me how we have Christians today who carry on in sexual sin but what others call it is good. Some claim to be Christian and enrace sin calling it loving. Yet Paul instructed Christians to reject sin and those who wish to embrace it.
  15. R
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    13 Jan '18 17:45
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So there is membership that can be taken away.


    A backslidden Christian or a Christian who is being asked to not come to meetings is still a member of the Body of Christ.

    Do you disagree ?
    Isn't that why Paul said to admonish him as a brother?

    He is under discipline but he is still a Christian brother.


    What about not allowing them to eat.


    Well, that too is a implied discipline. I never viewed that as wresting food forcefully out of his hand. Do you envision using physical force to stop food from going into someone's mouth?

    The exhortation is that he should be made to feel ashamed.
    It is not that he should be forced to starve to death by a group of strong armed men hog tying him or ganging his mouth.


    The man who was kicked out for having sex with his father's wife stopped doing it. I know the story.


    That is right. He felt ashamed when he was disciplined. He was quarantined. Ie. "This brother is so unruly that we better withdraw from fellowshipping with him until he has a change."

    One may be put out of the practical fellowship of the local church. But that one is still a member of the Lord's Body and still a "member" of the universal church.
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