1. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    05 Oct '05 22:11
    Evolution says man's decisions are the result of chemical reactions - no more. Chemical reactions based on the law of "survival".

    Do we decide anything? Can we help what we do at all, or are we somehow pre-programmed (by natural selection) for survival and therefore every action we take is to promote that "instinct"?

    How then, can we explain someone's self-sacrifice? Why would someone lay their life down for a friend - or far more confusingly - a complete stranger? If we are nothing but complex chemical jars, is there any meaning to life? Do we even decide who we love or hate, or is it simply bio-chemistry we still fail to grasp?

    The various books on evolutionary philosophy left me without an answer to man's consciousness, his will to decide... things we witness daily.

    Moreover, if man is naught but chemicals, what is the purpose of music? Or humour? Science does not answer these things - and reading the writings of CS Lewis, Francis Schafer and other apologists, I found answers no other thoughts provided.

    Why will one man choose differently to another? Why will some men go against nature? If man can, he must have a will - he must be able to decide for or against what he feels. This is where evolutionary philosophy failed me...
  2. Standard memberMoldy Crow
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    05 Oct '05 22:21
    Originally posted by RatX
    Evolution says man's decisions are the result of chemical reactions - no more. Chemical reactions based on the law of "survival".

    Do we decide anything? Can we help what we do at all, or are we somehow pre-programmed (by natural selection) for survival and therefore every action we take is to promote that "instinct"?

    How then, can we explain someone ...[text shortened]... able to decide for or against what he feels. This is where evolutionary philosophy failed me...
    We've been answering you all day in the "is man matter" thread . Why are you over here ? Did you think we wouldn't find you here ?

    For any and all interested , I refer you to the above mentioned thread .
  3. Standard memberMoldy Crow
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    05 Oct '05 22:27
    Not answering or posting anymore ? Ok , well I have to work any way . You may want the interum to actually look some facts up(if there are any ) to shore up your position , try to use better logic , and remember there are some sharp kids in here who are going to bust your chops if you don't bring your "A"game . And I'll be back tomorrow too , so bring some kryptonite , b!+*h .
  4. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    06 Oct '05 07:31
    Originally posted by Moldy Crow
    Not answering or posting anymore ? Ok , well I have to work any way . You may want the interum to actually look some facts up(if there are any ) to shore up your position , try to use better logic , and remember there are some sharp kids in here who are going to bust your chops if you don't bring your "A"game . And I'll be back tomorrow too , so bring some kryptonite , b!+*h .
    Come on, mouldy - I don't live in your time-zone. And I don't live on the chess forum... It seems we don't live on the same planet - we're just arguing past each other.
  5. Standard memberorfeo
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    06 Oct '05 15:04
    I think it's highly dangerous to draw attention to the topic of free will as if Christians have this all sorted out. I have witnessed quite heated arguments about whether salvation is the result of our free will or God's predestination of us...
  6. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    06 Oct '05 20:36
    Originally posted by orfeo
    I think it's highly dangerous to draw attention to the topic of free will as if Christians have this all sorted out. I have witnessed quite heated arguments about whether salvation is the result of our free will or God's predestination of us...
    From a neutral perspective - I know that I have a free will, because I decide, I don't simply do... I can say yes or no, regardless of the situation. My will can even decide for death over life (be it for a noble or selfish cause).

    In a world-view, origins is the very foundation. From it, we decipher meaning, purpose and reality. It becomes a basis for our ethics, our thinking and science. If there is a flaw in our theory of origins, then the world-view is debased (unless one begins a patch-work of ad-hoc theories and piggy-backing various ethics, principles and views).

    Evolution conlcudes that man's actions are the result of chemical reactions and no more, so free will should be non-existant. But I can decide for or against my natural impulses, so I conclude that free will does exist. So is there more to man than evolution can answer? Absolutely. That is one of the many reasons why evolution could not be the basis of my world-view - it doesn't answer (or not conclusively enough) the questions that determine the foundation of my world-view.

    I don't see how Christians would really have a problem with free will - love is not genuine if it's not chosen; you can only be saved if you willfully choose Christ. And the Bible states, "He wills that none should perish..."

    To the predictable insult-riddled rebuttal (but evolution is not meant to answer this question, you're an idiot, stupid and ignorant and some more fungus):
    Origins are everything - to answer the question of why am I here, what is my purpose and where am I going? Origins must answer these as it states from whence you came (created or accident) what your purpose is (created for a higher purpose or none but to survive, enjoy life and reproduce ie. hedonism/existentialsim) and where am i going (accountable to the Creator or die, decompose and nothing more). If evolution does not answer these questions, how does one maintain a worldview that has evolution as its foundation?
  7. Standard memberorfeo
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    06 Oct '05 22:431 edit
    Given that I'm not an evolutionist, you're hardly going to get an insult-filled rebuttal from me.

    But if you want to get into quotes, have a read of Ephesians 1:4-5, which is one of the passages supporting predestination, not free will. Not so simple anymore. And the line that you quoted, that's about GOD'S will, not ours, so it's not support for the idea WE have free will.
  8. Standard memberRemoved
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    07 Oct '05 00:15
    Originally posted by RatX
    From a neutral perspective - I know that I have a free will, because I decide, I don't simply do... I can say yes or no, regardless of the situation. My will can even decide for death over life (be it for a noble or selfish cause).

    In a world-view, origins is the very foundation. From it, we decipher meaning, purpose and reality. It becomes a basis for our ...[text shortened]... answer these questions, how does one maintain a worldview that has evolution as its foundation?
    Do you have free will?...
    Or are you being manipulated by forces outside of your realm of understanding like a super chess game?
    You see my friend, what you are not even considering is that Satan is called the "great deceiver."
    Logically speaking, if you are deceived, you wouldn't even know it.

    Sure, you think you have choices, but they are limited. Consider these verses carefully...

    Eph 2:1-3
    1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
    2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
    3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
    (NKJ)

    These verses are directed at Christians..notice the phrase " walked according to the course of this world"..what is implied here is you have no choice how you "walk"/live....that is until you come to Christ and He sets you free....selah.
  9. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    07 Oct '05 15:11
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Do you have free will?...
    Or are you being manipulated by forces outside of your realm of understanding like a super chess game?
    You see my friend, what you are not even considering is that Satan is called the "great deceiver."
    Logically speaking, if you are deceived, you wouldn't even know it.

    Sure, you think you have choices, but they are l ...[text shortened]... choice how you "walk"/live....that is until you come to Christ and He sets you free....selah.
    The Bible clearly states, in several passages, that God wills that none should perish. When Christ called men to "believe" in Him, did he not mean that they should make a conscious decision to accept or reject Him? If we're pawns in a game, simply manipulated, then what is the value of belief, love or even right and wrong. If we're controlled, then man is not responsible for his actions and can therefore not be judged for them.

    While I do agree that God would know all things, even the future, I don't think He controls our decisions (although he may nudge him the right direction, like Paul). I think man's will is what drives his decisions. Then again, I haven't studied theology and this is just my two-cents...
  10. SubscriberBigDoggProblemonline
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    07 Oct '05 16:21
    Originally posted by RatX
    The Bible clearly states, in several passages, that God wills that none should perish.
    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
  11. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    07 Oct '05 21:49
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    In other words, fear Him who will judge the willful decisions of man...
  12. Meddling with things
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    07 Oct '05 21:53
    Originally posted by RatX
    Evolution says man's decisions are the result of chemical reactions - no more. Chemical reactions based on the law of "survival".

    Do we decide anything? Can we help what we do at all, or are we somehow pre-programmed (by natural selection) for survival and therefore every action we take is to promote that "instinct"?

    How then, can we explain someone ...[text shortened]... able to decide for or against what he feels. This is where evolutionary philosophy failed me...
    Try reading The Selfish Gene: by Richard Dawkins.
  13. Standard memberRemoved
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    07 Oct '05 22:44
    Originally posted by RatX
    The Bible clearly states, in several passages, that God wills that none should perish. When Christ called men to "believe" in Him, did he not mean that they should make a conscious decision to accept or reject Him? If we're pawns in a game, simply manipulated, then what is the value of belief, love or even right and wrong. If we're controlled, then man is n ...[text shortened]... t drives his decisions. Then again, I haven't studied theology and this is just my two-cents...
    This was directed at unbelievers and it is not God who is the great deceiver....😉
  14. SubscriberBigDoggProblemonline
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    08 Oct '05 04:23
    Originally posted by RatX
    In other words, fear Him who will judge the willful decisions of man...
    In more accurate words, fear the executioner. It is his will that many should perish.
  15. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    08 Oct '05 22:01
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    In more accurate words, fear the executioner. It is his will that many should perish.
    Good luck translating... A lot is in the eye of the beholder and others can only convince you that much.
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