1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    23 Oct '13 18:102 edits
    "4 July 1776 Declaration of Independence"

    On 4 July 1776, a document was written: the unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America:

    “When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's god entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to separation.”

    “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that to secure these rights, governments are institutions among men deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . .”

    “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce us to absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such a government and to provide new guards for their future security . . .”

    “We therefore acquiesce in the necessity which denounces our separation, and hold them as we hold the rest of mankind: enemies in war, and in peace, friends.”

    “We, therefore, the representatives of the united states of America, in general congress assembled, appealing to the supreme judge of the world for rectitude of our intention, do, in the name of and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states; that they are absolved of all allegiance to the British crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of great Britain is and ought to be totally dissolved, and that as free and independent states they have the full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may have a right to do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine providence, we mutually pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.”

    Comments on the marked contrast with this once independent republic's temporal 'reliances' today?
  2. Donationrwingett
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    23 Oct '13 19:04
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]"4 July 1776 Declaration of Independence"

    On 4 July 1776, a document was written: the unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America:

    “When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the ...[text shortened]... omments on the marked contrast with this once independent republic's temporal 'reliances' today?[/b]
    There is not a single mention of god in the Constitution. It is a secular document. Deal with it.
  3. Donationrwingett
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    23 Oct '13 19:121 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]"4 July 1776 Declaration of Independence"

    On 4 July 1776, a document was written: the unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America:

    “When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the ...[text shortened]... omments on the marked contrast with this once independent republic's temporal 'reliances' today?[/b]
    It should also be noted that Jefferson's original draft did not contain either the references to "creator" or "divine providence". His mention of "nature's god" is clearly a deistic reference. Hardly a ringing endorsement of your conception of god.

    http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1776-1785/jeffersons-draft-of-the-declaration-of-independence.php
  4. Territories Unknown
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    23 Oct '13 19:48
    Originally posted by rwingett
    There is not a single mention of god in the Constitution. It is a secular document. Deal with it.
    What an insipidly dull thing to posit.

    The Constitution isn't being referenced, so why bring it into the conversation? Instead, why don't you comment on what is being asked, i.e., your thoughts about the concepts highlighted which clearly and apologetically acquiesce to the Creator?
  5. Donationrwingett
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    23 Oct '13 19:54
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    What an insipidly dull thing to posit.

    The Constitution isn't being referenced, so why bring it into the conversation? Instead, why don't you comment on what is being asked, i.e., your thoughts about the concepts highlighted which clearly and apologetically acquiesce to the Creator?
    Because the Declaration of Independence is not the law of the land. The Constitution is. Does that answer your question?
  6. Territories Unknown
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    23 Oct '13 20:14
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Because the Declaration of Independence is not the law of the land. The Constitution is. Does that answer your question?
    Great. Thanks for that clarification.

    So enlighten us: what was the purpose of the DoI, exactly?
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    23 Oct '13 20:17
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    What an insipidly dull thing to posit.

    The Constitution isn't being referenced, so why bring it into the conversation? Instead, why don't you comment on what is being asked, i.e., your thoughts about the concepts highlighted which clearly and apologetically acquiesce to the Creator?
    Simple. A lot of the signers were theists and deists. For the rest, it may have been a tactic to appeal to the religious, or wasn't worth arguing about.
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    23 Oct '13 20:25
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Great. Thanks for that clarification.

    So enlighten us: what was the purpose of the DoI, exactly?
    Here is a pretty good answer from Yahoo answers: "The point of the Declaration of Independence was to say why the colonies were leaving England; to say what justification they had to essentially commit what was seen as treason, and explain why it wasn't treason."

    It also said that the rebellious colonies were open for business, so potential trade arrangements need not be involve England.
  9. Donationrwingett
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    23 Oct '13 20:41
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Great. Thanks for that clarification.

    So enlighten us: what was the purpose of the DoI, exactly?
    Its purpose is self-evident.

    Would you care to comment on Jefferson's original draft, or are you just going to ignore that part?
  10. Donationrwingett
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    23 Oct '13 21:18
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]"4 July 1776 Declaration of Independence"

    On 4 July 1776, a document was written: the unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America:

    “When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the ...[text shortened]... omments on the marked contrast with this once independent republic's temporal 'reliances' today?[/b]
    If you're going to wax rhapsodic over something Jefferson (mostly) wrote, perhaps you'd also like to comment on what is today known as the "Jefferson Bible". But then again, you might not.
  11. Territories Unknown
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    23 Oct '13 21:24
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Its purpose is self-evident.

    Would you care to comment on Jefferson's original draft, or are you just going to ignore that part?
    Since its purpose is self-evident, why do you avoid limiting your comments to the purpose of the thread? Why, instead, do you bring an unrelated topic into the conversation?

    Speaking of ignoring parts, why have you ignored the question posed by OP?

    And lest you think you've won some inferior point, I will comment on the original draftReveal Hidden Content
    http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/rough.htm
    ... you know, the one wherein nothing is fundamentally changed--- and certainly nothing which would lead even the casual observer to conclude the authors were anything less than believers in the God of creation?

    My comment: they certainly were serious students of history, weren't they?
  12. Territories Unknown
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    23 Oct '13 21:26
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If you're going to wax rhapsodic over something Jefferson (mostly) wrote, perhaps you'd also like to comment on what is today known as the "Jefferson Bible". But then again, you might not.
    I have no problem with TJ's problems with the Bible. He had an acidic, nearly counter-productive intellect at times. It offered him more turmoil than it ever did rest.
  13. Territories Unknown
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    23 Oct '13 21:26
    Originally posted by JS357
    Here is a pretty good answer from Yahoo answers: "The point of the Declaration of Independence was to say why the colonies were leaving England; to say what justification they had to essentially commit what was seen as treason, and explain why it wasn't treason."

    It also said that the rebellious colonies were open for business, so potential trade arrangements need not be involve England.
    And they called upon God as their witness.
    Period, end of story.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Oct '13 21:36
    Originally posted by rwingett
    There is not a single mention of god in the Constitution. It is a secular document. Deal with it.
    Well it does mention "our Lord" which is obviously a reference to Jesus.

    The Instructor
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    23 Oct '13 23:31
    Originally posted by JS357
    Simple. A lot of the signers were theists and deists. For the rest, it may have been a tactic to appeal to the religious, or wasn't worth arguing about.
    "a tactic to appeal to the religious"

    Oh, really? It's my understanding that the type of wording in the Declaration was how most would-be Americans in the colonies felt at that time. It wasn't just an appeal to a segment of the population, it was the thinking of a vast majority of the population. It's just a good thing that the representatives to the Second Continental Congress got something right. Ditto the attendees to the Constitutional Convention of 1787.
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