1. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jun '16 16:43
    What's a "Brute Fact" ?

    How is a " Brute Fact" different from a "Fact" ?
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    24 Jun '16 16:46
    Wiki -

    In contemporary philosophy, a brute fact is a fact that has no explanation.[1] More narrowly, brute facts may instead be defined as those facts which cannot be explained (as opposed to simply having no explanation).[2] To reject the existence of brute facts is to think that everything can be explained. ("Everything can be explained" is sometimes called the principle of sufficient reason). There are two ways to explain something: say what "brought it about", or describe it at a more "fundamental" level.[citation needed] For example, a cat displayed on a computer screen can be explained, more "fundamentally", as there being certain voltages in bits of metal in my screen, which in turn can be explained, more "fundamentally", as that there are certain subatomic particles moving in a certain way. If we keep explaining the world in this way and reach a point at which no more "deeper" explanations can be given, then we would have found some facts which are brute or inexplicable, in the sense that we cannot give them an ontological explanation[citation needed]. As it might be put, there may exist some things that just are. The same thing can be done with causal explanations. If nothing made the big bang expand at the velocity it did, then this is a brute fact in the sense that it lacks a causal explanation.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jun '16 16:503 edits
    From what I get from twhitehead and maybe some others - many brute facts are allowed except that "God exists."

    An eternal uncreated Supreme Life as the Creator, a higher than, cannot be imagined, - that cannot be a "brute fact" to atheism. That is the impression I get.

    IE. Other "brute facts" are allowed but not that there is God.
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    24 Jun '16 16:561 edit
    To the Western theist, isn't the existence of God a brute fact?

    However, I would say that in addition to "a brute fact is a fact that has no explanation", it is the case that the brute fact does not need an explanation. It is not a deficiency to have no explanation.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jun '16 16:571 edit
    The resident expert on "Brute Facts" seems to be twhitehead. But don't expect him to respond soon. He usually waits until a sufficient number have spread the atheist fog around. Then he comes in under the covering of this fog to obfuscate and claim "brute facts" and insist all burden for explaining things is on believers in God.

    Maybe about the tenth entry he'll come in.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jun '16 17:024 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    To the Western theist, isn't the existence of God a brute fact?
    Fair enough. And I was waiting for the resident expert on the "Brute Fact" - twhitehead come in.

    Yes. I take it as a Fact that there is God. But to bridge the gap between this Ultimate Reality there are two things -

    Faith on my side,
    FaithfulNESS on God's side.

    This link between me a man of finite limitation and God of eternal and uncreated factualness can be bridged so that there is communion and fellowship, if I choose to receive it as it is extended by God.

    He is FAITHFUL.
    I reach out in FAITH.

    If God is an illusion or if God is not FAITHFUL my reaching out in FAITH means ZERO (nothing).
  7. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jun '16 17:122 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    However, I would say that in addition to "a brute fact is a fact that has no explanation", it is the case that the brute fact does not need an explanation. It is not a deficiency to have no explanation.


    Let's see if the Atheists who like to refer to brute facts demand no explanation for the fact proposed that God exists.

    I have a funny feeling that they will demand an explanation, and then some .and an explanation for the explanation.
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    24 Jun '16 17:241 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    The resident expert on "Brute Facts" seems to be twhitehead. But don't expect him to respond soon. He usually waits until a sufficient number have spread the atheist fog around. Then he comes in under the covering of this fog to obfuscate and claim "brute facts" and insist all burden for explaining things is on believers in God.

    Maybe about the tenth entry he'll come in.
    That is a totally uncalled for description of me. I have never ever once delayed responding to a post 'for effect' or some other stupid reason such as 'atheist fog'. I do not sit in this forum all day just waiting for a new post. I have a life you know. I expect an apology from you for the obvious malicious slander.

    Perhaps you could start by explaining what difficulties you are having with the Wikipedia explanation?

    A brute fact is a fact that just is. It has no deeper explanation. It seems necessary that at least some brute facts must be the case. It is my understanding that you believe God to be a brute fact. Do you not? Do you believe that God was caused? Do you believe he exists for a reason? Once we know that reason, does that reason have a cause or reason? Is there an infinite chain of reasons? If not, then it has to stop at a brute fact - or as some theists say, an uncaused cause.
  9. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    24 Jun '16 18:08
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That is a totally uncalled for description of me. I have never ever once delayed responding to a post 'for effect' or some other stupid reason such as 'atheist fog'. I do not sit in this forum all day just waiting for a new post. I have a life you know. I expect an apology from you for the obvious malicious slander.

    Perhaps you could start by explainin ...[text shortened]... easons? If not, then it has to stop at a brute fact - or as some theists say, an uncaused cause.
    And in fairness your post was the 8th in the thread, not the predicted 10th.
  10. Standard memberFetchmyjunk
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    24 Jun '16 18:13
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That is a totally uncalled for description of me. I have never ever once delayed responding to a post 'for effect' or some other stupid reason such as 'atheist fog'. I do not sit in this forum all day just waiting for a new post. I have a life you know. I expect an apology from you for the obvious malicious slander.

    Perhaps you could start by explainin ...[text shortened]... easons? If not, then it has to stop at a brute fact - or as some theists say, an uncaused cause.
    So is a brute fact true or is it a figment of your imagination?
  11. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    24 Jun '16 18:31
    Originally posted by sonship
    What's a "Brute Fact" ?

    How is a " [b]Brute
    Fact" different from a "Fact" ? [/b]
    A brute fact is something that may not be explainable, but is so evident that it can not be disputed. (As opposed to a fact that, if it had no explanation, could be easily disputed).

    I would not view God as a brute fact. Even if I conceded his existence was unexplainable, I do not believe his existence is evident or undeniable.
  12. Standard memberFetchmyjunk
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    24 Jun '16 18:331 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    A brute fact is something that may not be explainable, but is so evident that it can not be disputed. (As opposed to a fact that, if it had no explanation, could be easily disputed).

    I would not view God as a brute fact. Even if I conceded his existence was unexplainable, I do not believe his existence is evident or undeniable.
    Is logic a brute fact?
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    24 Jun '16 18:35
    Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
    Is logic a brute fact?
    No.
  14. Standard memberFetchmyjunk
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    24 Jun '16 18:411 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    No.
    Then what is an example of a brute fact? And if logic is not a brute fact what is it? A figment of your imagination?
  15. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    24 Jun '16 19:05
    Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
    Then what is an example of a brute fact? And if logic is not a brute fact what is it? A figment of your imagination?
    As I sit here this evening, I feel tired.

    My tiredness is a brute fact. I can't fully explain it, but it is fully evident.

    Your logic sir is a figment of your imagination.
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