Originally posted by sonship
Your "reasons" are a facade.

What reasons? I didn't give any reasons at all.

You simply hate the existence of God in any possibility.
You can't read my mind. And I have never stated anything of the kind. Which means you are now lying.

You're just into denying the existence of God at any cost.
Your just upset that you made a fool of yourself over the term 'brute fact'.

I note that you still haven't apologised for the earlier slander.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, I just use better dictionaries than you. I note you failed to give the source of your definition. Did you make it up?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact
* something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence
* a true piece of information

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact
* A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.

So your own source contradicts your previous claim:

You previously said :"Facts aren't necessarily known, and facts are not 'true'."

Your own dictionary which you claim is better than mine agrees with mine (that ego again):

It says , : "A fact is "a true piece of information"

So are you going to retract your lie? Do you think anyone is going to take you seriously when you keep on contradicting yourself?

Originally posted by twhitehead

I said I apologized for returning evil for evil. And that's all you're getting.

And I don't need to read your mind. A little reading comprehension plus written words over these many years is sufficient.

You have a facade going of having the higher ground in rational thought, higher ground in reasoning. Actually, its just that you don't want what you don't want - for there to be God. I don't need any mental telepathy or mind reading.

You make sure that even the possibility that it could be one of your brute facts is closed off. Why ? Because you don't believe in God.

There's no "more logical than thou" in that kind of thinking.

No, the atheists position is simply that there is no reason to believe God exists. And no, it is totally untrue that 'any other "brute fact" is OK'. I could list countless claimed brute facts that I do not believe to be actual facts let alone brute facts. For example 2+2=5 is not a brute fact.

That is right. I do not mean all other concepts you accept as brute facts. My wording could be misunderstood. What I mean is that the existence of God is the one possible brute fact that you would avoid no matter what. You make sure that even its possibility won't occur to you.

And as far as 2+2=5? I actually think you'd be more willing to finally believe that 2 + 2 = 5 than to believe that God exists.

It is the LAST fact that you want to acknowledge as possible.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So are you going to retract your lie?

It wasn't a lie.

The word 'fact' has a rather wide range of meaning. In some contexts it may refer to a piece of information about something, in other cases it may refer to the something that that information is about. And as in the case of the dictionary you found, it could refer to information that is accepted or agreed upon by parties in a court case. Context is important.

I ask you to consider the term 'fact finding'. Think about it for a bit.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It wasn't a lie.

The word 'fact' has a rather wide range of meaning. In some contexts it may refer to a piece of information about something, in other cases it may refer to the something that that information is about. And as in the case of the dictionary you found, it could refer to information that is accepted or agreed upon by parties in a court cas ...[text shortened]... ontext is important.

I ask you to consider the term 'fact finding'. Think about it for a bit.

Always miles and miles of leeway for yourself.

Originally posted by sonship
I said I apologized for returning evil for evil. And that's all you're getting.

And I don't need to read your mind. A little reading comprehension plus written words over these many years is sufficient.

You have a facade going of having the higher ground in rational thought, higher ground in reasoning. Actually, its just that you don't want what y ...[text shortened]... n to believe that God exists.

It is the LAST fact that you want to acknowledge as possible.

" I actually think you'd be more willing to finally believe..."

Is belief an act of will?

Originally posted by sonship
I said I apologized for returning evil for evil. And that's all you're getting.

So you admit to being evil and your apology is really an insult? I see.

And I don't need to read your mind. A little reading comprehension plus written words over these many years is sufficient.
Apparently not, given that what you claim to know is false.

You have a facade going of having the higher ground in rational thought, higher ground in reasoning.
It is not a facade. It is an obvious fact. Go through this thread for and example of how much lower the ground you stand on clearly is.

Actually, its just that you don't want what you don't want - for there to be God.
No, that is just you not being able to come up with anything rational to say. You started a thread thinking you were on to something and now that you are looking the fool, you think that announcing that I don't want there to be God somehow brings me down to your level of raving lunacy and makes your nonsense more reasonable.

Seriously, now that you (I hope) understand what the phrase 'brute fact' actually means, reread the thread and die of embarrassment.

You make sure that even the possibility that it could be one of your brute facts is closed off.
No, actually, I don't. Nothing I have said even suggests that. Your just making it up. Hence the fact that I am clearly more rational than you.

There's no "more logical than thou" in that kind of thinking.
Well given that 'that kind of thinking' is a figment of your imagination, it is clearly you that is the illogical one.

That is right. I do not mean all other concepts you accept as brute facts. My wording could be misunderstood.
Or your wording could be just plain wrong. I'll accept that you misspoke.

What I mean is that the existence of God is the one possible brute fact that you would avoid no matter what.
So you say, but you have no actual evidence for the claim. And you are wrong.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So your own source contradicts your previous claim:

You previously said :"Facts aren't necessarily known, and facts are not 'true'."

Your own dictionary which you claim is better than mine agrees with mine (that ego again):

It says , : "A fact is "a true piece of information"

So are you going to retract your lie? Do you think anyone is going to take you seriously when you keep on contradicting yourself?

If something is not known can it be said to be a fact? Suppose there is non-sentient life on Mars. We haven't discovered it yet, so we don't know that it exists. It is non-sentient so it cannot be said to know it exists. Is it then the case that the existence of this life-form can be called a fact if no one knows about it?

The "brute" part, it seems to me, is straightforward. The equivalent in Mathematics would be something like Euclid's axioms for geometry. Within the mathematical theory the other statements depend on them, but the axioms are only required not to contradict each other, they do not require explanation.

Given that we don't know whether there is a God or not, can either of the sentences "God exists" or "God does not exist" be a brute fact? Assuming that if God exists then his existence cannot be explained, we have that one of them would be a brute fact and the other not a fact, but since we don't know which is true then can either of them be called a fact?

So what makes a fact a fact, its realization in the world or a combination of that and our knowledge of it?

Originally posted by twhitehead

So you admit to being evil and your apology is really an insult? I see.
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Yep. I said I returned evil FOR evil.
How much mileage do you think you can get from that?

Did I ever boast that I was incapable of doing evil ?
So Oh, you see. Good for you that Oh you see. It was written plainly enough I think.


Apparently not, given that what you claim to know is false.
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I claim to know what is true.
You have not been malicious and attacking people's character and education?

You do put on occasionally a Mr. Innocent act.


It is not a facade. It is an obvious fact. Go through this thread for and example of how much lower the ground you stand on clearly is.
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Going through the thread only increases the realization of your fakery.


No, that is just you not being able to come up with anything rational to say.
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No, that's you making sure that even the possibility of God being a brute fact cannot occur.


You started a thread thinking you were on to something and now that you are looking the fool, you think that announcing that I don't want there to be God somehow brings me down to your level of raving lunacy and makes your nonsense more reasonable.
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Lunacy ?

That the cosmic buck stops with an uncreated and eternal Being a greater than cannot be imagined is not lunacy.

What one Jesus of Nazareth demonstrated in His three in one half years in word and deed was not lunacy. And it is not lunacy to believe His integrity exceeds your slippery evasive atheist arguments.


Seriously, now that you (I hope) understand what the phrase 'brute fact' actually means, reread the thread and die of embarrassment.
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I got what I need. And evidence from you that even the possibility of God being a brute fact you loath. You confirmed what I suspected.

me:
You make sure that even the possibility that it could be one of your brute facts is closed off.

No, actually, I don't. Nothing I have said even suggests that. Your just making it up. Hence the fact that I am clearly more rational than you.
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No, the atheists position is simply that there is no reason to believe God exists.

Jesus Christ is a reason to believe that God exists.
The existence of the universe is reason to believe that God exists.
The existence of our sense of moral ought is a reason to believe that God exists.

You just want to maintain any other reason for these three above things is preferable.
It is not because you have more rational reasons there.

If we tried to pin you down on any alternative reasons I don't think you would except the burden of it. So it boils down to you don't want what you don't want what you don't want.

The question of why there is something rather than nothing would probably responded by you to a frightful barrage of escaping excuses for committing to no explanation.

Watch.

Twhitehead, we have this universe here filled with life of incredible design.
Where did all this come from ?

Attempt an answer without ending it in a question mark.


Well given that 'that kind of thinking' is a figment of your imagination, it is clearly you that is the illogical one.
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And in your next post to me you'll demonstrate a more believable explanation for the existence of the universe and its life and man than then God's existence and creating.

And you will shut my mouth by showing a more logical explanation that a Supreme Creator. And you'll do so hopefully without turning it around to a question to me.

Here's your chance to show your superior reasoning.


Or your wording could be just plain wrong. I'll accept that you misspoke.
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There is no reason, says you the atheist for the belief that the existence of God could be one of these brute facts.

That is because a BETTER reason for the existence of the world and life IS - - - - (Your next post). Minus question marks displaying your higher reasons , more rational reasons for the universe and life.

me:
What I mean is that the existence of God is the one possible brute fact that you would avoid no matter what.

So you say, but you have no actual evidence for the claim. And you are wrong.
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Show me. A more reasonable, more logical explanation from the philosophy of atheism for our being, the universe's existence and the incredible biosphere IS - - - - ?

You're on !
Don't ask me anything. Just explain your better reason.

Originally posted by DeepThought
So what makes a fact a fact, its realization in the world or a combination of that and our knowledge of it?

It depends on context.

One might say that the statement:
"The sea contains water"
is a 'fact'.
Or one might say that the sea containing water is a fact.
ie 'fact' may refer to both a statement about something or the something it refers to, depending on context.
The statement typically requires someone to know about it, the thing it refers to, does not.

Wikipedia lists some other uses too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact#Etymology_and_usage

Originally posted by sonship
Always miles and miles of leeway for yourself.

Whereas you just can't help talking yourself into a corner.

I am still half expecting you to demand to know why BRUTE FACTS are YELLOW and why, if I am so smart and logical, I haven't yet answered the question.

Originally posted by twhitehead

Show me. A more reasonable, more logical explanation from the philosophy of atheism for our being, the universe's existence and the incredible biosphere IS - - - - ?

You're on !
Don't ask me anything. Just explain your better reason.

I am preparing myself to be impressed with a display of your better logic.

Go for it. Can you do it without "It depends" and "What do you mean by ...?" ?

Something more reasonable now, than the "brute fact" of an eternal uncreated uncaused Supreme Creator - God.

Originally posted by sonship
Yep. I said I returned evil FOR evil.
How much mileage do you think you can get from that?

Just the fact that you admit to it and remain unrepentant.

I claim to know what is true.
Maybe you do, but in this case in question, you are wrong.

You have not been malicious and attacking people's character and education?
And justifiably so. That doesn't excuse you making up lies about me. Evil for perceived evil is still evil.

No, that's you making sure that even the possibility of God being a brute fact cannot occur.
Well, if I have made sure it cannot occur are you saying I have single handedly eliminated God from the universe? You do realise that you are not making any sense.

That the cosmic buck stops with an uncreated and eternal Being a greater than cannot be imagined is not lunacy.
And, as usual, I never said it was. That you wish to imply that I did, is blatant dishonesty on your part.
That you feel compelled to such dishonesty just demonstrates that I do in fact hold the higher ground of rational thought and reasoning.

I got what I need. And evidence from you that even the possibility of God being a brute fact you loath. You confirmed what I suspected.
You got no such evidence. You just made it up when I wouldn't produce it on demand. Nowhere in the thread is even a thread of such evidence.

Jesus Christ is a reason to believe that God exists.
The existence of the universe is reason to believe that God exists.
The existence of our sense of moral ought is a reason to believe that God exists.
And if you wish, we could discuss why I do not accept those as valid reasons. But you do not wish to hold civil discussion, in a rational manner. Instead you choose to use slander and lies.

If we tried to pin you down on any alternative reasons I don't think you would except the burden of it.
As usual, you are inventing what you think I would do and getting ahead of yourself. Stop arguing with the ghosts in your head.

So it boils down to you don't want what you don't want what you don't want.
Huh? No, it boils down to you making stuff up and then falsely claiming that it is an accurate description of me. Malicious slander which you have correctly identified as evil.

Twhitehead, we have this universe here filled with life of incredible design.
Where did all this come from ?
I haven't got a clue. As you well know. I have stated my position many times on the forum in the past.

And in your next post to me you'll demonstrate a more believable explanation for the existence of the universe and its life and man than then God's existence and creating.
No. As usual I will not do everything you tell me to just because you tell me to. It doesn't work that way. And my refusal to post according to your dictation does not in any way make you right.

Here's your chance to show your superior reasoning.
OK. I won't say what you wanted me to say. That proves my superior reasoning beyond all doubt.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Whereas you just can't help talking yourself into a corner.

I am still half expecting you to demand to know why BRUTE FACTS are YELLOW and why, if I am so smart and logical, I haven't yet answered the question.

I am still half expecting you to demand to know why BRUTE FACTS ...

I took the initiative to look up the definition on Wiki and PASTE it into the discussion.
We're past the definition of "Brute Fact".

I'm allowed to answer my own question.

You're going to show me your reasons for us being here has better chance of of being a fact then the creation from God.

Now my wording here is a bit different. Since you're so good, don't take the easier wording. Take on the tougher one.

What's your more logical reason for the fact of our existence and of life then God's uncreated and eternal existence ?

You have a better reason which renders it totally unnecessary that God's existence be accepted as a "brute fact".

Dazzle us.

Originally posted by twhitehead

And my refusal to post according to your dictation does not in any way make you right.

So you do have a better explanation but you just don't like to be pushed around ?

You feel you're being dictated to what you have to do ?
But your impeccable logic shouldn't be concerned about this, I would think.

Just answer and shut me up.
No need to accept God as a brute fact as the origin of the universe and life as a brute fact simply because ------------ ?

(Better explanation from Atheist twhitehead)

Pretty please ?