1. Standard membersonshiponline
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    27 Jun '17 20:03
    There is a proper and good sense in which we should believe God as annihilated something into non-existence.

    Annihilation of the old man some call termination. And this is the passing away into non-being that the Christian really should admit, realize, believe in, preach, and truth of which the believers must stand upon boldly.

    Annihilation - of the independent [b]"I" who lives apart from God.

    "Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves." (Rom. 6:6)


    Knowing this,
    Being cognizant of this,
    Grasping and realizing THIS.

    The Adamic "I" - independent from God, alienated from the life of God has been TERMINATED. Not by our effort has it been terminated. But by union with Jesus Christ it has been annulled, terminated, annihilated with Him in His crucifixion.

    I am going to repeat this truth in several other words.
  2. Standard membersonshiponline
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    27 Jun '17 20:111 edit
    an·ni·hi·la·tion
    əˌnīəˈlāSHən/
    noun
    1.
    complete destruction or obliteration.
    "the threat of global annihilation"


    In the New Testament there is an Annihilation which the believer needs to realize and appropriate by faith. All of the promises of the New Testament are appropriated by faith.

    The independent "I" of the fallen Adamic, self centered man, has been terminated via its union and identification with Christ's work on Calvary.

    "What then shall we say ? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?

    Absolutely not! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?

    Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life. " (Rom. 6:1-4)


    The death of Jesus Christ is powerful in its terminating power to annihilate some negative things. We needn't struggle to get rid of them. We need to believe that in Christ's death these matters have been terminated.
  3. Standard membersonshiponline
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    27 Jun '17 20:26
    Annihilation - Termination.

    Paul advanced in his pioneering experience of the ascended Christ. He recognized the truth that his old independent life from God had been annihilated - terminated in Christ's death.

    " I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; ... " (See Gal. 2:20)


    I have often told some people that co-death with Christ makes suicide obsolete.
    People commit suicide because they come to believe that what they are is hopeless.
    It cannot be improved, cannot be remedied, cannot be fixed. Something is only good to be killed.

    In a sense this is quite biblical. But suicide is not the answer. Faith in our co-death with Christ is the answer. His death for all has made suicide obsolete.

    Paul saw this. And in it he excelled in his pioneering trek into the enjoyment of Christ.

    "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.

    Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more; death lords it over Him no more.

    For the death which He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life which he lives, He lives to God." (Rom. 6:8-10)


    Seeing this in the Holy Spirit leads to availing ourselves to the annihilating power of Christ's terminating death. He died for all, not only redemptively but to terminate the old man.

    " So also you, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (v.11)
  4. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Jun '17 20:54
    Originally posted by sonship
    Annihilation - Termination.

    Paul advanced in his pioneering experience of the ascended Christ. He recognized the truth that his old independent life from God had been annihilated - terminated in Christ's death.

    [b] " I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; ... " (See Gal. 2:20) ...[text shortened]... ou, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (v.11) [/b]
    [/b]
    In a way I think I understand what you are saying. We cannot live apart from Christ.
    But, sorry but there is a but....
    The old man, (the sinful nature) is still here in this body. When Paul says the old man is dead, I think he means future.
    Just like when Paul said, (and by Paul, I may just as well say Jesus, because that is where Paul's words come from,) we are "seated in the heavenlies" he means in the future.
    It is an old figure of speech using something that will absolutely happen, as happening now.
    In the Hebrew and Aramaic idiom in which the Bible was written, when something was absolutely going to happen in the future, it was sometimes spoken of as if it had already occurred in the past. This is apparently due to the fact that it is sometimes hard to express that a future event is certain to happen. Many times when we simply say that something “will” happen it does not happen. One way the Semitic languages avoided that was by idiomatically saying something already had happened even though the event was actually still future. That is the case in Ephesians 2:6 and some other verses in the New Testament—a future event is put in the past tense for emphasis.

    In other words, what God says will happen, WILL happen.
  5. Standard membersonshiponline
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    27 Jun '17 21:174 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    In a way I think I understand what you are saying. We cannot live apart from Christ.
    But, sorry but there is a but....
    The old man, (the sinful nature) is still here in this body. When Paul says the old man is dead, I think he means future.
    Just like when Paul said, (and by Paul, I may just as well say Jesus, because that is where Paul's words come fr ...[text shortened]... t in the past tense for emphasis.


    In other words, what God says will happen, WILL happen.[/b]
    This was a good comment.

    There is something that Paul says has been terminated.
    And there is something that Paul says we in an ongoing way need to put to death.

    The independent "I" - living apart from God, he says has been crucified.
    The practices of the body do, as you indicate, show the fallen nature is still with the believer until the transfiguration - "the redemption of the BODY".

    So there is a distinction.

    1.) The independent I has been terminated with Christ's death.

    2.) Based upon this, daily, as needed "the practices of the body" need to be put to death by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    "Knowing this ..."

    IE. Knowing that our old man has been crucified with Him.

    "Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the BODY OF SIN ... might be annulled, that we should ... NO LONGER ... serve sin as slaves. "

    That we would no longer serve sin as slaves is built upon our knowing that the independent "I" - Godless, self-centered, has been crucified.

    Based upon this revelation we utilized the Holy Spirit - TODAY, prior to and up to the time of transfiguration, to put to death the practices of the fallen body.
    " For if you live according to the flesh, you must due, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:13)

    We cannot say this exercise is to WAIT until the moment of the twinkling of an eye in transfiguration. Now is the time to utilize the indwelling Spirit of Christ to put to death the practices of the body.

    How can we do this? We must not be ignorant that we should no longer serve sin as slaves because the fallen, God - independent "I" has been terminated.

    When we called on the Lord Jesus Christ to come into our hearts at the first, didn't we feel like something died within us ? Did we not feel, when we stepped through the door of receiving Jesus as Lord, that something died ? A door was stepped through by which we could never be the same.

    On the other side, before receiving Jesus Christ as Lord, the sinner does sense that if he asks Jesus to come into him, something of what he was before will be gone. And he is right.

    Of course something NEW will be a liberation and salvation.

    " So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold they have become new." (2 Cor. 4:17)

    " If I ask Jesus to come into my heart, I know that I will never be the same somehow."

    That is true. The old man will be terminated.
    This is the annihilation that is really worth believing in.
  6. Standard membersonshiponline
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    27 Jun '17 21:281 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    In a way I think I understand what you are saying. We cannot live apart from Christ.
    But, sorry but there is a but....
    The old man, (the sinful nature) is still here in this body. When Paul says the old man is dead, I think he means future.
    Just like when Paul said, (and by Paul, I may just as well say Jesus, because that is where Paul's words come fr ...[text shortened]... t in the past tense for emphasis.


    In other words, what God says will happen, WILL happen.[/b]
    In other words, what God says will happen, WILL happen.


    What do you think about this? Martha was certain that Christ would eventually raise everyone from the grave at the end of time. But Jesus drew her attention to the fact that He was at that moment the resurrection and the life.

    "Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day.

    Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me even if he should die, shall live;

    And everyone who lives and believes into Me, shall by no means die forever. Do you believe this? " (John 11:24,25)


    I think John wrote this purposely. We may postpone God's work. We may relegate His work only to a future time. At least in this instance Jesus told her in essence - "Look, resurrection is standing before you right now. I am the resurrection that you are postponing off to a future time."

    I AM ... that resurrection and that eternal life.
    We should not miss what Christ IS, presently, to us today.
    Am I right ?
  7. Standard membersonshiponline
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    27 Jun '17 21:33
    There is of course a FUTURE resurrection. But sometimes Jesus points to what He is to us TODAY.

    " I AM the resurrection and the life ..."


    See?

    I am today crucified with Christ.
    I am buried with Him.
    And in His resurrection I am one with Him to walk in newness of divine life.
  8. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    27 Jun '17 22:13
    Originally posted by sonship
    There is a proper and good sense in which we should believe God as annihilated something into non-existence.

    I see you defined annihilation but in what sense are you using "good" and "proper"?
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    27 Jun '17 22:18
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I see you defined annihilation but in what sense are you using "good" and "proper"?
    You actually read all that? Im impressed.
  10. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Jun '17 23:27
    Originally posted by sonship
    In other words, what God says will happen, WILL happen.


    What do you think about this? Martha was certain that Christ would eventually raise everyone from the grave at the end of time. But Jesus drew her attention to the fact that He was at that moment the resurrection and the life.

    [quote] [b] "Martha said to Him, I know that he will ...[text shortened]... d that eternal life.
    We should not miss what Christ IS, presently, to us today.
    Am I right ?
    Yes, I think you are right. When He said "I am the Resurrection and the life", the word life is referring to life in the age to come because it is made clear in the next verse.
    But the "new" life, that is, our relationship, union, begin now.
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    28 Jun '17 07:032 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    There is a proper and good sense in which we should believe God as annihilated something into non-existence.

    Acnnihilation of the old man some call termination. And this is the passing away into non-being that the Christian really should admit, realize, believe in, preach, and truth of which the believers must stand upon boldly.

    [b]Annihilatio ...[text shortened]... hilated with Him in His crucifixion.

    I am going to repeat this truth in several other words.
    You are wrong about this too. And it is NOT truth as you erroneously claim.

    We are instructed to pick up our cross and told to "die daily".
    As checkbaiter says, the sinful self is not annihilated into non-existence.

    You should know your Bible better yourself and spend less time posting the thoughts and teachings of other people who are clearly not leading you in the right direction.

    #sonship_strange_beliefs
  12. Standard membersonshiponline
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    28 Jun '17 11:598 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    You are wrong about this too. And it is NOT truth as you erroneously claim.

    We are instructed to pick up our cross and told to "die daily".
    As checkbaiter says, the sinful self is not annihilated into non-existence.

    You should know your Bible better yourself and spend less time posting the thoughts and teachings of other people who are clearly not leading you in the right direction.

    #sonship_strange_beliefs
    You are wrong about this too. And it is NOT truth as you erroneously claim. teachings of other people who are clearly not leading you in the right direction.


    There is no need to HUNT for a disagreement with me.
    Of course I believe the exhortation is to pick up our cross daily.
    No argument. No debate. No disagreement about that.

    While I embrace Paul's testimony that he dies DAILY (1 Cor. 15:31) I ALSO welcome the NT revelation that we have died with Christ once for all.

    " For the love of Christ constrains us because we judged this, that One died for all, therefore all died;

    And He died for all that those who live may no longer live to themselves but to Him who died for them and has been raised." (2 Cor. 5:14,15)


    We need all the help we can get out here. How about we say "AMEN!" to the need to know His resurrection power and to die DAILY ? And how about we also say "AMEN!!" that Christ died for all and therefore ALL DIED ?

    How about we trust our God who has uttered BOTH ?

    I daily put to death the practices of the body through the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:13).
    And that DAILY, even HOURLY. And how about we stand upon the revelation that we are once and for all crucified with Christ ? Something is annihilated. Something is terminated.

    " I am crucified with Christ; and it is NO LONGER ... I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (See Gal. 2:20a)


    Sir ? Permission granted to believe both, sir ?? Oh pretty please ??

    The Once for All termination with Christ is biblical. We need it.
    And the moment by moment executing the killing power of the Holy Spirit upon the practices of the body is not the opposite. We needn't choose to believe one and reject the other as error.

    Don't be overly eager to pick a argument with me.

    "If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God ... (v.1)

    Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleaness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry; (vs.5)


    All of this in verse 5 is based upon the fact mentioned in verse 3 -

    " For you DIED, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." (v.3)


    1.) Seeing, believing, laying hold of the revelation that we have DIED with Christ ...

    2.) Upon this fact we daily "put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth"
    There is no contradiction. And I think an over zealousness to find a bone to pick with me has influenced you to foolishly claim - "This is right and this OTHER is wrong."

    A proper grasp of annihilation is that we Christians HAVE indeed died with Christ .
  13. Standard membersonshiponline
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    28 Jun '17 12:06
    " Set your mind on the things which are above, ..." (Col. 3:2)


    This is another way of saying to set our mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus indwells the believer.

    "The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)
  14. Standard membersonshiponline
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    28 Jun '17 12:31
    The debate which Divegeester attempts to launch is that because there is the DAILY application of the cross therefore we should not believe that we have died with Christ once and for all.

    Its is a bit silly to embrace one side of the truth and discard the other.
    God has uttered both.
    We trust our Father and should believe both.

    This particular thread leans towards the terminating death once and for all with Christ in His death.

    To help I might point to the matter in Romans 6 where a good translation states that this co death experience is a growing one. And co-rising with Christ is also a growing one.

    The Recovery Version New Testament renders Romans 6:4 in this way:

    "We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order t hat just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life.

    FOR ... if we have GROWN together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection, ..." (Rom. 6:4,5)


    The divine FACT that the believer has been crucified and buried with Jesus Christ dawns upon them deeper and deeper in a matter of GROWTH. Am I right ?

    "For if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death ..."


    But what is it that is a growing unveiling truth in the experience of the Christian? It is that she has been baptized into His death when He died. Christ died ONCE.

    "Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ?

    We have BEEN ... BURIED ... therefore with Him through baptsim into His DEATH, ..."


    And for what purpose this revelation?
    And for what purpose do we need to not be ignorant of this fact ?
    That we might go step by step, walking in NEWNESS of divine life in Jesus Christ.

    "We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ as raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,

    so also we might walk in newness of life." (v.4)


    We get into all the practical outworking of these matters by touching the Spirit deep within. The identification in Romans 6 is practically applied by the setting of the mind on the mingled regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Christ is in Romans 8.

    The Identification of Romans 6 is practically applied in walking following the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8.
  15. Standard membersonshiponline
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    28 Jun '17 12:34
    Originally posted by sonship
    This was a good comment.

    There is something that Paul says has been terminated.
    And there is something that Paul says we in an ongoing way need to put to death.

    The independent [b]"I"
    - living apart from God, he says has been crucified.
    The practices of the body do, as you indicate, show the fallen nature is still with the believer until the t ...[text shortened]... e. The old man will be terminated.
    This is the annihilation that is really worth believing in.[/b]
    Typo:

    Due should be DIE

    " For if you live according to the flesh, you must die [edited], but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:13)
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