A Proper Annhilation

Originally posted by sonship

You are wrong about this too. And it is NOT truth as you erroneously claim. teachings of other people who are clearly not leading you in the right direction.

There is no need to HUNT for a disagreement with me.
Of course I believe the exhortation is to pick up our cross daily.
No argument. No debate. No disagreement about that.

Whil ...[text shortened]... wrong."

A proper grasp of annihilation is that we Christians HAVE indeed died with Christ .

Who's "hunting"?

You are plainly and blatantly wrong and you wrong because you prefer other ministers teaching over the teaching of the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
The debate which Divegeester attempts to launch is that because there is the DAILY application of the cross therefore we should not believe that we have died with Christ once and for all.

Its is a bit silly to embrace one side of the truth and discard the other.
God has uttered both.
We trust our Father and should believe both.

This particular thre ...[text shortened]... omans 6 is practically applied in walking following the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8.[/b]

The Bible teaches that we are to die daily. How can we die daily if we (the old man) has been annihilated?

You are clearly wrong sonship, but as usual you lack the grace and humility to admit it.

Originally posted by divegeester
The Bible teaches that we are to die daily. How can we die daily if we (the old man) has been annihilated?

You are clearly wrong sonship, but as usual you lack the grace and humility to admit it.

The Bible teaches that we are to die daily.

I have already heartily agreed that this Paul testified to.
And I have already agreed that we are taught to pick up our cross daily.
I gave quite a few examples of this daily putting to death of something - as the New Testament teaches.

How can we die daily if we (the old man) has been annihilated?

It is a good question. However it is not SO good that it causes me to say our old man has NOT ... been crucified with Christ.

" Knowing this that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves;

For he who has died is justified from sin.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him."

The daily putting to death of the practices of the body is based upon our having already died with Christ.

I want to believe each of these teachings. To say it is a lack of humility to want to believe both of these teachings I think is itself lacking in humility.

When I received Jesus Christ, someone in me died. Something independent as a the only way I knew how to live seemed to have died.

The Apostle seems to say "That's right." And we should stand upon that fact in order to put to death many and various negative things still lingering on.

But I reserve the right to believe even in daily caring the cross to put to death many things, I have been crucified and buried with Christ. I choose not to be ignorant of this as the Apostle stated.

" Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

We HAVE BEEN ... buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, ..."

Humility says "AMEN" . The word of God says that I have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death.

What is this "You are too proud to admit that you should not believe this ?"

if you want to say "I carry the cross and die daily" that's very good, especially if it is real to you.

You are clearly wrong sonship, but as usual you lack the grace and humility to admit it.

"... for you have DIED and your life is hidden with Christ in God." (Col. 3:3)

I think I want to say AMEN Lord I have DIED. And my life is hidden with Christ in God.

I want to also say that each day I allow the Spirit's work to cross out things of my old way of living.

Originally posted by sonship
The Bible teaches that we are to die daily.

Yes it does. The victory that is in Christ is a daily one. The word "annihilation" does not come into it. Stick to the word and stop making stuff up like "a proper annihilation".

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes it does. The victory that is in Christ is a daily one. The word "annihilation" does not come into it. Stick to the word and stop making stuff up like "a proper annihilation".

That's a small point. I never wrote that "annihilation" was the word used.

But just as we can stand upon Paul's saying he died daily we can stand on the word that we died with Christ.

If you don't want to, that's your choice.

Romans chapter 6.
Colossians 3.

Originally posted by sonship
That's a small point. I never wrote that "annihilation" was the word used.

And I didn't say that you did that.

It's not a small point! What I've suggested you is to cease making up teachings (or copying them from someone else) and to stop using decriptions such as "proper annihilation" which impact the meaning of the scripture/teaching you are talking about.

It is very good for the Christian to stand upon several utterances of God's word concerning the old man having died with Christ.

The Apostle Peter writes:

"Who Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose bruise you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)

God honors our laying hold of this precious promise. Christ went up to the cross purposely "in order" that the sinner could not only be redeemed, but that he might experience "having DIED to sins." .

The goal of realizing we have died to sins? That we might live to righteousness.
Who in their right mind would want to fight against such a precious New Testament revelation?

Originally posted by divegeester

What I've suggested you is to cease making up teachings (or copying them from someone else) and to stop using decriptions such as "proper annihilation" which impact the meaning of the scripture/teaching you are talking about.
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The phrase "proper annihilation" I never heard before until I made it up for this discussion.

Paul told the Philippians believers to imitate him, his close co-workers, and to take note of those who so walk in the same way.

"Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern." (Phil. 3:17)

What a pattern some brothers and sisters become, to which I do well to walk in the same way, imitating their experience, passing on their helpful fellowship.

Some people seem jealous, envious, scolding Christians - "think for yourself!" "don't copy!"
Philippians 3:17 says DO!

I would instead of fighting for the non-existence of the lost, concentrate on the "non-existence" of those elements which Christ has put AWAY in His finished work.

Thus the imperfect yet somewhat useful concept of a proper or better of applying annihilation.

Christ intends we see we have died to sins.

"... in order that we having died to sins, might live to righteousness ..." ( 1 Pet. 2:24)

Christ intends that by union with Him His death have power for our release.

" ... all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ... we have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death ..." (Rom. 6:3,4)

Christ intends that we reckon ourselves having DIED to sin.

"So also you, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but living to God in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 6:11)

if we are going to yearn for annihilation, this is a good nullifying, sending out of existence (the old independent fallen self) to seize by faith daily, and is quite biblical.

If we are to "die daily" as scripture instructs, then there has to be something to die on each day. And if there is something to die each day, then that something cannot have been "properly annihilated".

It's not complicated, IF one sticks to scripture rather than the doctrines of men.

🙂

Originally posted by divegeester

Acts 2:42 says the early church continued steadfastly in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles.

"And they continued steadfastly in the teaching and the fellowship of the apostles, ..."

That continuing steadfastly in their fellowship and teaching Divegeester implies was them just following the "doctrines of men."

Well, that we are crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, raised with Christ are all part of the "doctrines of men" - men sent by God. And to say that the old man died with Christ is an item of the teaching and fellowship of the apostles.

Some of us intend to continue steadfastly in this teaching and fellowship.
That is ALL of their teaching and fellowship.

The saints continued steadfastly in the "teaching and fellowship of the apostles" (Acts 2:42).

Now sometimes that teaching and fellowship may not have been all that easy to understand. Some statement may have seem paradoxical.

Notice Paul says that WHATEVER was helpful he passed on the the saints under his care.

" ... I did not withhold any of those things that are profitable by not declaring them to you and by not teaching you publically and from house to house, ..." (Acts 20:20)

That he [Paul] died daily was profitable for the church to be taught.
Also that we and he have died with Christ in His death, was profitable to be taught.

Though some may find the two statements contradictory, as if one we should believe and the other we should not, they were each profitable to hear.

In this way the Apostle Paul declared in his letters and messages "all the counsel of God."

" I did not shrink from declaring to you all the counsel of God." (v.27)

So we have a paradox in the New Testament. On one hand the apostle Paul says he dies daily. And on the other hand he says he died with Christ.

The one is based upon seeing the other.
The reckoning of Romans 6 - daily reckoning yourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God, is based upon really seeing, grasping that you can reckon because you have died with Christ.