A question for Christians

Originally posted by RJHinds
I sin less and less too, however, what does that prove?

The Holy Bible says we must endure in our faith to the end, then we will be saved.

The Instructor

Are you not one of the people who believe in accepting Christ with your mouth and then you are 'eternally saved' whether or not you comit atrocious sins?

Originally posted by Rajk999
ALL ?? Curious about where the Bible clearly says this. Maybe you are confusing inherited sin from Adam with actual comitted sins.

Bear in mind the Bible described some as 'perfect'...

Job_1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Well with the exception of Jesus. But we are all sinners all the time everyday.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
What??? I totally disagree with this.
John 3:16 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believes in him ....
There is nothing about a select few, in fact Paul was sent to the Gentiles, God wanted to save the Gentiles too. That includes you and me!

Are you not familier with the 2 groups or flocks that Jesus spoke of many times and who they are and what their future will be here on the earth and in the heavens?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well with the exception of Jesus. But we are all sinners all the time everyday.

You already expressed that opinion which you said is clearly stated in the Bible. Do you have a reference ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
You already expressed that opinion which you said is clearly stated in the Bible. Do you have a reference ?

About all humans sinning? I have to show you from the Bible that we all sin? Really?

Originally posted by galveston75
Are you not familier with the 2 groups or flocks that Jesus spoke of many times and who they are and what their future will be here on the earth and in the heavens?

There is one flock and one Shepard. I know what you are saying and I disagree. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for the sins of the whole world.
There are not two flocks. The bible would fall apart.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
There is one flock and one Shepard. I know what you are saying and I disagree. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for the sins of the whole world.
There are not two flocks. The bible would fall apart.

Yes in the big picture their is one flock in the sense that all are under the rule of Jesus and all follow him.
But Jesus spoke of two flocks. One was a small one and was a larger one that no one could number.
If there were not two flocks, he would never have said that.


Luke 12:32

Good News Translation (GNT)


32. “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the Kingdom.

Here it states that one is a small flock and the ones in it will be given the Kingdom to them. This would be the ones that Jesus and his Father have chosen to actually go to heaven after death to serve as those Kings and Judges with Jesus over the rest of the Kingdom which would include the earth.
So who is going to be on earth? That would be the larger flock that Jesus referred to that will live thru armegeddon and the future ones who will be resurrected from the gave and be the subjects that Jesus and the little flock or chosen ones who are seen with Jesus on the judicial throne in heaven beside Jehovah.
So yes you are right Jesus died for all humans to have a chance to gain life, no issue there. But he cleary spoke of two groups or flocks and each of those flocks are different in where they live in the future.


John 10:16

Good News Translation (GNT)


16 There are other sheep which belong to me that are not in this sheep pen. I must bring them, too; they will listen to my voice, and they will become[a] one flock with one shepherd.

So yes Jesus does say they will all listen to him and be one flock in belief. But he cleary states also that there are two flocks.

Here is a question about this:


Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?


Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.


The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou; literally, “in sight of the throne&rdquo😉 does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.


p. 168The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

Originally posted by galveston75
About all humans sinning? I have to show you from the Bible that we all sin? Really?

Yes. I showed you from the Bible we all dont sin. Show me where we all do.

Hi Galveston, how have you been?

Concerning John 10:16

I have heard it taught that the 'other ones' referred to here is the Gentiles. Before Jesus had come the Isrealites were Gods only flock. In John 10:16 Jesus is referring to the Gentiles:

that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, (Ephesians 3:6 NKJV).

The 'two flocks' .

Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by galveston75
[b] ...This would be the ones that Jesus and his Father have chosen to actually go to heaven after death to serve as those Kings and Judges with Jesus ..b]

Do you have a reference in the Bible for this part about anyone going to heaven to serve as Kings and Judges with Jesus ?

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes in the big picture their is one flock in the sense that all are under the rule of Jesus and all follow him.
But Jesus spoke of two flocks. One was a small one and was a larger one that no one could number.
If there were not two flocks, he would never have said that.


Luke 12:32

Good News Translation (GNT)


32. “Do not be afraid, littl ...[text shortened]... expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have been wrongly taught by the Watchtower on John 10:16 that there are two flocks that Jesus spoke of. One earthly and one is heavenly. But according to the Bible speaking to the Jews, said “There shall be ONE fold, and ONE shepherd” (John 10:16.)

Witnesses are told “The `other sheep' do not need any such rebirth, for their goal is life everlasting in the restored earthly Paradise as subjects of the Kingdom” (Watchtower Feb. 15, 1986, p. 14).

“One aspect of that secret involved Jehovah’s selecting a “little flock” of 144,000 humans to be associated with his Son as part of the seed, to reign with him in heaven.” (Examining the Scriptures Daily 2007 p.117 Nov 28.)
There is no mention of the 144,000 being the” little flock.” The 144,000 are described only twice in the Bible at Revelation 7 and 14, and the term Little Flock appears only once.

However, the Watchtower connects the “little flock” with “144,000” to convince their members they are one and the same, even though these terms do not appear together or are related in the Bible.

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.”

Jesus is speaking of a future tense because he said “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”(Matthew 15:24). This was the flock he was to shepherd when he did his ministry on earth.

Lets go back to the beginning of John 10 to understand what Jesus means. John 10:1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. “But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep” Notice what Jesus says next in v3-4 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. “And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.”

V.11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” Does he give his life for some sheep or all?

Now let’s read John 10:16 about the other sheep.

John 10:14-16: “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.” According the Bible both the little flock which the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the 144,000 and the earthly class are all sheep. He laid his life down for ALL the sheep, not just the 144,000.

v.16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.”

And they are all one flock there is no separation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses have. And all the sheep are to be under “that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant” (Heb. 13:20-21)

Jesus - John 10:27: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

All the sheep follow him and if they don’t the verse before applies V.26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you”

Jesus says they will hear My voice; he says also of the other sheep they will hear My voice. So all hear his voice and have him as their shepherd or they are not his.

The new covenant is applied to both Jews and Gentiles, who enter the body of Christ by Jesus being their mediator. Jesus reference to other Sheep makes it clear he has a single sheepfold, he is the shepherd of both Jews and Gentiles. The new covenant is applied to both Jews and Gentiles, who enter the body of Christ by Jesus being their mediator. Jesus reference to other Sheep makes it clear he has a single sheepfold, he is the shepherd of both Jews and Gentiles. Any reference by Jesus to a Little flock and to other sheep was not about two different destinations but to two different people groups.

Matt 25:31-34 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. “All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. “And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left” Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

Jesus returns and only the sheep enter the kingdom. Who are the sheep? This is crucial to understand whom will enter the kingdom. Notice how they are divided, the sheep are not divided as those who exclusively go to heaven and those who are on earth. But sheep and goats - being saved or unsaved

Originally posted by Rajk999
Are you not one of the people who believe in accepting Christ with your mouth and then you are 'eternally saved' whether or not you comit atrocious sins?

I agree with RJ in that a person who is saved is always saved. This is the whole purpose of Jesus being a ransom for many.
He paid for our sin past, present and future. Once you are a child of God, you are born again by "seed".
If I have sin when I die and go to hell, then Jesus's sacrifice was not good enough?
Heck, my earthly father could do better than that! I am his son no matter what. Do you suppose God is less than my earthly father?
You have a wrong perspective on the character of God.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree with RJ in that a person who is saved is always saved. This is the whole purpose of Jesus being a ransom for many.
He paid for our sin past, present and future. Once you are a child of God, you are born again by "seed".
If I have sin when I die and go to hell, then Jesus's sacrifice was not good enough?
Heck, my earthly father could do better ...[text shortened]... se God is less than my earthly father?
You have a wrong perspective on the character of God.

A person who is saved is always saved ? BUT ...

How do you tell who is saved in the first place?
By baptism?
By accepting Christ with their mouth?
What?
Who are you to say who is saved?

The sacrifice of Christ is for the sins of man, but after accepting Christ you cannot go about and sin as you well please. Read Romans 5 and 6.

I think that through Christ we never have to sin again, but often fall short because we take our eyes off him for whatever reason.

The question I think becomes, do we repeat such sins or gain victory over them? I think that separates the men from the boys.

Originally posted by Rajk999
A person who is saved is always saved ? BUT ...

How do you tell who is saved in the first place?
By baptism?
By accepting Christ with their mouth?
What?
Who are you to say who is saved?

The sacrifice of Christ is for the sins of man, but after accepting Christ you cannot go about and sin as you well please. Read Romans 5 and 6.

I know I am saved because I confessed Jesus as Lord and have believed God raised him from the dead. God promised, He is faithful to his promises.
Do you think God lies?
I don't always know who is saved, I can only tell you about myself. I know many who are saved because I see their works, or they speak in tongues like I do.
Who am I to say who is saved? I am one of many sons of God and I believe what his word says.
When a person is born again, he loves God and does not want to sin. Grace is not a license TO sin but we are freed FROM sin.
The Law is holy and good, but it does not save anyone. It only magnifies sin. I choose to not sin because I have a new nature, I don't belong to Satan anymore. However, I occasionally blow it, then confess to the Lord and I am back in fellowship with him.
Why would a Christian want to sin anyway? We sin but not intentionally.