Originally posted by dj2becker
If mere belief determined reality, it would matter little what anyone believes. For the person who chooses to believe in Christ and the Bible, Christianity would become the truth. But for the person who chooses to believe in the Koran and Muhammad, Isam would become the truth. The same could be said about any other religion, sect, or cult. If belief determ ...[text shortened]... is this: take a bite out of the apple yourself before you say there's a worm in it.
Excellent post! Thanks, dj. I never thought you had it in you. My
, sincere apologies for thinking you were a complete
Now, assuming there are universal rights and wrongs that cannot change
in accordance with individual circumstances, just like with the apples
you'd be a fool to take a bite if you suspected there were worms in it. So,
if there's even the slight possibility that there's a God and it gave us
certain moral values, that apparently lies hidden in apples in the shape
of worms, I think I'll pass on that, thank you.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Are you still reading? Good. What I meant to say
is that unlike the apples of which you speak, we cannot simply walk up to
the moral rights and wrongs and take a bite, can we? I mean, the only
thing we have to go on is our perception of moral right and wrong which
is mostly based on how we perceive it at the moment. So if it was really
bad for me (or someone I care about) I would probably think of it as the
wrong thing to do even though the same action would perhaps not have
the same consequences for you, say. Right and wrong is very much
determined on an individual basis simply because that's all we have to
go on (whether or not there really is a universal version of right and
wrong for each possible action). You keep saying killing is wrong no
matter when it's done, that we cannot think of the same action as right in
one case and wrong in another. In principal I agree with you (and I've
said that a few times in this site, I think). In reality such black and white
division doesn't work though. We need to bend the rules often, simply
because our very survival depends upon it. Sometimes we're more or
less forced to kill (self defence or forced by our nation). That's
unfortunate circumstances and to say that it's still wrong to kill you'd
have to ask yourself what kind of God would put you in that situation and
then punish you for using the faculties you were given to defend
yourself? I do believe it's also wrong to take your own life (according to
the bible), and to simply allow your life to be taken would then also be
wrong. So whatever you do in that situation you're doing wrong, right?
If you had come across Christianity later in life, is it likely you would
consider it to be absolutely true in opposition to whatever religious belief
you had? If so, you're one of the relatively few whom actually would
change religion later in life. In any case, you should ask yourself
Christianity would necessarily be the truth when all you got to
go by is a collection of scriptures written by men (possibly inspired by
God) thousands of years ago and assembled into a book some hundred
years later. The only reason you believe it's the word of God is because
you've been told that by other humans. If indeed you have spoken to or
heard God, good for you (I hope), but I haven't so to me the apple's
aren't even visible in the sense you paint them. My apples (no sex jokes
here, please) are naturally grown (
) but still just as much apples as
your God-made ones. Hence, my morals as an agnostic is no less than
the morals you think are absolute and from God itself. In fact, looking at
history it would seem to not matter much where your morals come from.
Some men and women with no religious beliefs have acted very
unselfishly and then there are those who claim to believe in a given
religion whom at the same time seem to act only in their self interest
(those TV-reverends come to mind).
Again, a very well written post with a most excellently sensible argument.
I thank you for that even if I don't agree with you.