1. Joined
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    19 Feb '07 09:10
    What do you base your world view on? U-hu, a single book written some
    two thousand years ago, edited numerous times with sections written
    and selected by a group of humans partial to the idea of monotheism as
    it appears in Christianity.

    Ok, good.

    Now, tell me. What in your mind stops you from, oh, say pillaging
    another country, murder and rape innocent people (including babies) and
    taking the butt-virginity of little boys in your "congregation"?

    Answer that, and you have the answer to your question about what moral
    guidelines an atheist may or may not have.
  2. Joined
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    19 Feb '07 09:53
    Originally posted by stocken
    What do you base your world view on? U-hu, a single book written some
    two thousand years ago, edited numerous times with sections written
    and selected by a group of humans partial to the idea of monotheism as
    it appears in Christianity.

    Ok, good.

    Now, tell me. What in your mind stops you from, oh, say pillaging
    another country, murder and rape i ...[text shortened]... have the answer to your question about what moral
    guidelines an atheist may or may not have.
    LOL! 'butt-virginity'!!! Oh man, that's really a funny way of putting it.

    OK, dj2, if you don't mind, answer please!
  3. Standard memberAgerg
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    19 Feb '07 17:522 edits
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    LOL! 'butt-virginity'!!! Oh man, that's really a funny way of putting it.

    OK, dj2, if you don't mind, answer please!
    I expect that dj2becker will hit back with:

    "so you're saying arses having only one cheek is absolutely wrong?" (or something else completely irrelevant)
  4. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 00:02
    Originally posted by stocken
    What do you base your world view on? U-hu, a single book written some
    two thousand years ago, edited numerous times with sections written
    and selected by a group of humans partial to the idea of monotheism as
    it appears in Christianity.

    Ok, good.

    Now, tell me. What in your mind stops you from, oh, say pillaging
    another country, murder and rape i ...[text shortened]... have the answer to your question about what moral
    guidelines an atheist may or may not have.
    Your baseless, ignorant, and hypocritical assertion isn't worthy of a response.
  5. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    20 Feb '07 01:17
    Originally posted by josephw
    Your baseless, ignorant, and hypocritical assertion isn't worthy of a response.
    Methinks it's cutting a little too close to the bone for some.
  6. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 06:02
    Originally posted by josephw
    Your baseless, ignorant, and hypocritical assertion isn't worthy of a response.
    But his baseless, ignorant and hypocritical assertions do require response?

    Besides, everything I said in that post is true, like it or not. Being a Christian
    is all about having an incredible faith (some would say on the brim of
    stupidity kind of faith, but I won't go there - no need for insults right?), not
    about facts and observable truths.
  7. Shetland Primary
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    20 Feb '07 10:16
    Originally posted by stocken
    But his baseless, ignorant and hypocritical assertions do require response?

    Besides, everything I said in that post is true, like it or not. Being a Christian
    is all about having an incredible faith (some would say on the brim of
    stupidity kind of faith, but I won't go there - no need for insults right?), not
    about facts and observable truths.
    That is obvious you where you(outsider looking in) and me(insider) differ.
  8. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 10:28
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    That is obvious you where you(outsider looking in) and me(insider) differ.
    😵

    You have such a way with words.
  9. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 10:47
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    That is obvious you where you(outsider looking in) and me(insider) differ.
    Why am I not surprised by this completely incoherent answer?
  10. Shetland Primary
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    20 Feb '07 10:49
    Originally posted by stocken
    Why am I not surprised by this completely incoherent answer?
    It seems you enjoy speaking to yourself. 😀

    So long. Enjoy it.
  11. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 11:02
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    It seems you enjoy speaking to yourself. 😀

    So long. Enjoy it.
    One can but admire your ability to ignore the obvious in favour of the hazy
    and mystical as if it were as clear as daylight. 🙂
  12. Shetland Primary
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    20 Feb '07 13:12
    Originally posted by stocken
    One can but admire your ability to ignore the obvious in favour of the hazy
    and mystical as if it were as clear as daylight. 🙂
    If mere belief determined reality, it would matter little what anyone believes. For the person who chooses to believe in Christ and the Bible, Christianity would become the truth. But for the person who chooses to believe in the Koran and Muhammad, Isam would become the truth. The same could be said about any other religion, sect, or cult. If belief determined reality, whatever god a person chose to believe in would become god for that person. And for the atheist, reality would consist of a universe with no god at all. In the postmodern world, all these 'truths' are considered equal because truth is whatever a person chooses to believe. As long as it's "true for you" then it's true.

    On the other hand, I believe that absolute truth is an objective reality that exists totally independent of what anyone thinks or feels about it. It is a reality that is true for all people, for all times, for all places. Truth is real and solid whether or not we choose to believe it, just as Mount Everest is real and solid whether or not we choose to climb it. Contrary to your postmodern views, I believe that we do not create truth, we discover it. Belief does not determine reality, reality exists apart from belief. Our belief in truth merely brings us into alignment with it and activates its power in our lives.

    Consider a simple illustration. You and your friend find an apple on a table. Your friend believes that it is full of worms, but you believe that it is fresh and worm-free. Can your differing beliefs about the apple create two different truths that each of you can experience as reality? The way to find out is to slice the apple open. Then you will discover that either the apple has worms or that it doesn't. The moment that you slice into it, either your ''truth" or that of your friend will be exposed as error. The truth about the apple is independent of whatever either of you may believe about it.

    So my adivice to you is this: take a bite out of the apple yourself before you say there's a worm in it.
  13. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 17:02
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    If mere belief determined reality, it would matter little what anyone believes. For the person who chooses to believe in Christ and the Bible, Christianity would become the truth. But for the person who chooses to believe in the Koran and Muhammad, Isam would become the truth. The same could be said about any other religion, sect, or cult. If belief determ ...[text shortened]... is this: take a bite out of the apple yourself before you say there's a worm in it.
    Excellent post! Thanks, dj. I never thought you had it in you. My
    absolute, sincere apologies for thinking you were a complete
    numbhead. 🙂

    Now, assuming there are universal rights and wrongs that cannot change
    in accordance with individual circumstances, just like with the apples
    you'd be a fool to take a bite if you suspected there were worms in it. So,
    if there's even the slight possibility that there's a God and it gave us
    certain moral values, that apparently lies hidden in apples in the shape
    of worms, I think I'll pass on that, thank you. 😛

    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Are you still reading? Good. What I meant to say
    is that unlike the apples of which you speak, we cannot simply walk up to
    the moral rights and wrongs and take a bite, can we? I mean, the only
    thing we have to go on is our perception of moral right and wrong which
    is mostly based on how we perceive it at the moment. So if it was really
    bad for me (or someone I care about) I would probably think of it as the
    wrong thing to do even though the same action would perhaps not have
    the same consequences for you, say. Right and wrong is very much
    determined on an individual basis simply because that's all we have to
    go on (whether or not there really is a universal version of right and
    wrong for each possible action). You keep saying killing is wrong no
    matter when it's done, that we cannot think of the same action as right in
    one case and wrong in another. In principal I agree with you (and I've
    said that a few times in this site, I think). In reality such black and white
    division doesn't work though. We need to bend the rules often, simply
    because our very survival depends upon it. Sometimes we're more or
    less forced to kill (self defence or forced by our nation). That's
    unfortunate circumstances and to say that it's still wrong to kill you'd
    have to ask yourself what kind of God would put you in that situation and
    then punish you for using the faculties you were given to defend
    yourself? I do believe it's also wrong to take your own life (according to
    the bible), and to simply allow your life to be taken would then also be
    wrong. So whatever you do in that situation you're doing wrong, right?

    If you had come across Christianity later in life, is it likely you would
    consider it to be absolutely true in opposition to whatever religious belief
    you had? If so, you're one of the relatively few whom actually would
    change religion later in life. In any case, you should ask yourself
    why Christianity would necessarily be the truth when all you got to
    go by is a collection of scriptures written by men (possibly inspired by
    God) thousands of years ago and assembled into a book some hundred
    years later. The only reason you believe it's the word of God is because
    you've been told that by other humans. If indeed you have spoken to or
    heard God, good for you (I hope), but I haven't so to me the apple's
    aren't even visible in the sense you paint them. My apples (no sex jokes
    here, please) are naturally grown (😵) but still just as much apples as
    your God-made ones. Hence, my morals as an agnostic is no less than
    the morals you think are absolute and from God itself. In fact, looking at
    history it would seem to not matter much where your morals come from.
    Some men and women with no religious beliefs have acted very
    unselfishly and then there are those who claim to believe in a given
    religion whom at the same time seem to act only in their self interest
    (those TV-reverends come to mind).

    Again, a very well written post with a most excellently sensible argument.
    I thank you for that even if I don't agree with you. 🙂
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