19 Feb 07
What do you base your world view on? U-hu, a single book written some
two thousand years ago, edited numerous times with sections written
and selected by a group of humans partial to the idea of monotheism as
it appears in Christianity.
Ok, good.
Now, tell me. What in your mind stops you from, oh, say pillaging
another country, murder and rape innocent people (including babies) and
taking the butt-virginity of little boys in your "congregation"?
Answer that, and you have the answer to your question about what moral
guidelines an atheist may or may not have.
19 Feb 07
Originally posted by stockenLOL! 'butt-virginity'!!! Oh man, that's really a funny way of putting it.
What do you base your world view on? U-hu, a single book written some
two thousand years ago, edited numerous times with sections written
and selected by a group of humans partial to the idea of monotheism as
it appears in Christianity.
Ok, good.
Now, tell me. What in your mind stops you from, oh, say pillaging
another country, murder and rape i ...[text shortened]... have the answer to your question about what moral
guidelines an atheist may or may not have.
OK, dj2, if you don't mind, answer please!
19 Feb 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ckoh1965I expect that dj2becker will hit back with:
LOL! 'butt-virginity'!!! Oh man, that's really a funny way of putting it.
OK, dj2, if you don't mind, answer please!
"so you're saying arses having only one cheek is absolutely wrong?" (or something else completely irrelevant)
20 Feb 07
Originally posted by stockenYour baseless, ignorant, and hypocritical assertion isn't worthy of a response.
What do you base your world view on? U-hu, a single book written some
two thousand years ago, edited numerous times with sections written
and selected by a group of humans partial to the idea of monotheism as
it appears in Christianity.
Ok, good.
Now, tell me. What in your mind stops you from, oh, say pillaging
another country, murder and rape i ...[text shortened]... have the answer to your question about what moral
guidelines an atheist may or may not have.
20 Feb 07
Originally posted by josephwBut his baseless, ignorant and hypocritical assertions do require response?
Your baseless, ignorant, and hypocritical assertion isn't worthy of a response.
Besides, everything I said in that post is true, like it or not. Being a Christian
is all about having an incredible faith (some would say on the brim of
stupidity kind of faith, but I won't go there - no need for insults right?), not
about facts and observable truths.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
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- 12095
20 Feb 07
Originally posted by stockenThat is obvious you where you(outsider looking in) and me(insider) differ.
But his baseless, ignorant and hypocritical assertions do require response?
Besides, everything I said in that post is true, like it or not. Being a Christian
is all about having an incredible faith (some would say on the brim of
stupidity kind of faith, but I won't go there - no need for insults right?), not
about facts and observable truths.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
20 Feb 07
Originally posted by stockenIf mere belief determined reality, it would matter little what anyone believes. For the person who chooses to believe in Christ and the Bible, Christianity would become the truth. But for the person who chooses to believe in the Koran and Muhammad, Isam would become the truth. The same could be said about any other religion, sect, or cult. If belief determined reality, whatever god a person chose to believe in would become god for that person. And for the atheist, reality would consist of a universe with no god at all. In the postmodern world, all these 'truths' are considered equal because truth is whatever a person chooses to believe. As long as it's "true for you" then it's true.
One can but admire your ability to ignore the obvious in favour of the hazy
and mystical as if it were as clear as daylight. 🙂
On the other hand, I believe that absolute truth is an objective reality that exists totally independent of what anyone thinks or feels about it. It is a reality that is true for all people, for all times, for all places. Truth is real and solid whether or not we choose to believe it, just as Mount Everest is real and solid whether or not we choose to climb it. Contrary to your postmodern views, I believe that we do not create truth, we discover it. Belief does not determine reality, reality exists apart from belief. Our belief in truth merely brings us into alignment with it and activates its power in our lives.
Consider a simple illustration. You and your friend find an apple on a table. Your friend believes that it is full of worms, but you believe that it is fresh and worm-free. Can your differing beliefs about the apple create two different truths that each of you can experience as reality? The way to find out is to slice the apple open. Then you will discover that either the apple has worms or that it doesn't. The moment that you slice into it, either your ''truth" or that of your friend will be exposed as error. The truth about the apple is independent of whatever either of you may believe about it.
So my adivice to you is this: take a bite out of the apple yourself before you say there's a worm in it.
20 Feb 07
Originally posted by dj2beckerExcellent post! Thanks, dj. I never thought you had it in you. My
If mere belief determined reality, it would matter little what anyone believes. For the person who chooses to believe in Christ and the Bible, Christianity would become the truth. But for the person who chooses to believe in the Koran and Muhammad, Isam would become the truth. The same could be said about any other religion, sect, or cult. If belief determ ...[text shortened]... is this: take a bite out of the apple yourself before you say there's a worm in it.
absolute, sincere apologies for thinking you were a complete
numbhead. 🙂
Now, assuming there are universal rights and wrongs that cannot change
in accordance with individual circumstances, just like with the apples
you'd be a fool to take a bite if you suspected there were worms in it. So,
if there's even the slight possibility that there's a God and it gave us
certain moral values, that apparently lies hidden in apples in the shape
of worms, I think I'll pass on that, thank you. 😛
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Are you still reading? Good. What I meant to say
is that unlike the apples of which you speak, we cannot simply walk up to
the moral rights and wrongs and take a bite, can we? I mean, the only
thing we have to go on is our perception of moral right and wrong which
is mostly based on how we perceive it at the moment. So if it was really
bad for me (or someone I care about) I would probably think of it as the
wrong thing to do even though the same action would perhaps not have
the same consequences for you, say. Right and wrong is very much
determined on an individual basis simply because that's all we have to
go on (whether or not there really is a universal version of right and
wrong for each possible action). You keep saying killing is wrong no
matter when it's done, that we cannot think of the same action as right in
one case and wrong in another. In principal I agree with you (and I've
said that a few times in this site, I think). In reality such black and white
division doesn't work though. We need to bend the rules often, simply
because our very survival depends upon it. Sometimes we're more or
less forced to kill (self defence or forced by our nation). That's
unfortunate circumstances and to say that it's still wrong to kill you'd
have to ask yourself what kind of God would put you in that situation and
then punish you for using the faculties you were given to defend
yourself? I do believe it's also wrong to take your own life (according to
the bible), and to simply allow your life to be taken would then also be
wrong. So whatever you do in that situation you're doing wrong, right?
If you had come across Christianity later in life, is it likely you would
consider it to be absolutely true in opposition to whatever religious belief
you had? If so, you're one of the relatively few whom actually would
change religion later in life. In any case, you should ask yourself
why Christianity would necessarily be the truth when all you got to
go by is a collection of scriptures written by men (possibly inspired by
God) thousands of years ago and assembled into a book some hundred
years later. The only reason you believe it's the word of God is because
you've been told that by other humans. If indeed you have spoken to or
heard God, good for you (I hope), but I haven't so to me the apple's
aren't even visible in the sense you paint them. My apples (no sex jokes
here, please) are naturally grown (😵) but still just as much apples as
your God-made ones. Hence, my morals as an agnostic is no less than
the morals you think are absolute and from God itself. In fact, looking at
history it would seem to not matter much where your morals come from.
Some men and women with no religious beliefs have acted very
unselfishly and then there are those who claim to believe in a given
religion whom at the same time seem to act only in their self interest
(those TV-reverends come to mind).
Again, a very well written post with a most excellently sensible argument.
I thank you for that even if I don't agree with you. 🙂