A Serious Question: Literalism v. Time

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Its arrogant for humans to think they occupy some special place
on earth, like our supposed superiority over animals.

Uhm... yes... we are not superior to animals. We are only more intelligent; humorous (like you); capable of abstract thought; capable of deciding by will, not instinct; capable of writing and composing music; Yep, we can't be sup ...[text shortened]... based on assumption and therefore merits no answer from me, as I will only be replying in kind.[/b]

Its not just Christianity that fosters the attitude we are superior to
animals but the attitude is there just the same. By that I mean
we could care less what an animal feels, if we need to whack a
monkey in the head to test out a new drug, then by god, thats what
we will do, and have actually. Thats what I mean by our supposed
superiority. How can we call ourselves superior when we do things
like that? Or maybe you remember the elephant killings from the
helicopter? Crazed hunters shooting 50 calibler machine guns
into a herd of elephants just to watch them die, this is superiority?
IMHO the human race can't be considered to be morally superior
till no such humans exist any more. One Idi Amin kills off a hell of
a lot of attaboys. I should back off blaming christians for all the
evils of the world, is more of a human trait to be so superior they
can do anything they want to animals. But Christians get some
blame by announcing our god given right to rule over the planet,
If in a thousand years there are no humans here, or just a few
tribes deep in the amazon, that would be a pretty harsh verdict
for mankind and all its supposedly superior religions, would it not?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
As for what happened just before:

Suppose I am a two-dimensional scientist living on a piece of paper.

Suppose that you, a three-dimensional being, drop a marble covered with paint onto my world and it rolls around, tracing out a path of paint.

I can find the wettest end of the path, and trace it back along its path, following a progression ...[text shortened]... hat God, or any other particular metaphysical phenomenon, did not cause the Big Bang is a fraud.

Interesting isn't it, where the paint ends is where the root cause
seems to come from, yet traces disappear, it is where the reason
for his uninverse touched his space, in a place he cannot go. So
this guy's two-dimensional integrity forbids him to question what
was before, and if there are other areas of his life where his limited
views of 'two-dimensions' seem to be lacking for the root causes,
he would I assume to stay consistent, also avoid those questions
too.

Our guy, I’ll call F.S. for “flat space” is left with in his two
dimensions, his little “x” “y” coordinates in his two dimensional
universe, wouldn’t be able to grasp a being that could at a glance
see our man’s universe from a three dimensional universe, as we
could view a small map and affect him in ways he would think
impossible. F.S.’s view of how his universe must work could be
completely in error, his thinking of how all vectors work, his
views of distance, his view nearly every thing could be wrong if
he isn’t careful. He would know there was a place it all began,
with the trace of the paint, yet the importance of it seems to be
something he dismisses for integrity sake.

Would a two-dimensional man of integrity dismiss all views about
the third dimension as a delusion, since he is unable to view it,
except where the affect alters his reality? Would our FS ever be
able to grasp that all he sees and understands, can measure, and
track may not be all there is I wonder?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Interesting isn't it, where the paint ends is where the root cause
seems to come from, yet traces disappear, it is where the reason
for his uninverse touched his space, in a place he cannot go. So
this guy's two-dimensional integrity forbids him to question what
was before, and if there are other areas of his life where his limited
views of 'two-dim ...[text shortened]... at all he sees and understands, can measure, and
track may not be all there is I wonder?
Kelly

Interesting isn't it, where the paint ends is where the root cause seems to come from, yet traces disappear, it is where the reason for his universe touched his space, in a place he cannot go.

Well and beautifully put!

I think Scrib’s point was that science, as science, may not be able to ask beyond that splash with integrity? That that is the purview of philosophy and religion?

I would say that, as “philosophers,” we can ask with integrity, but that we need to be careful about dressing our “answers” in any cloak of certainty. I would also say that we need to look for our clues (the “traces”?) within the dimensions of our own existence (which includes the architecture of our own consciousness?).

And if that third (or more) dimension(s) is really ineffable? In that all our descriptions are really maps, that like our own existence as FS folk, are always themselves limited to two dimensions—i.e., not only is the map not the territory, our maps cannot begin to adequately portray the territory—and then we spend far too much time arguing about our maps? That perhaps our best attempts are no more than, as the Buddhists say, “fingers pointing (or attempting to point) at the moon?” Perhaps every time someone “touches” that dimension, and says something like, “Well, it’s like this ___________,” that description is already a translation by our two-dimensional brain into two-dimensional concepts in order to speak at all—even to ourselves…

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Interesting isn't it, where the paint ends is where the root cause seems to come from, yet traces disappear, it is where the reason for his universe touched his space, in a place he cannot go.

Well and beautifully put!

I think Scrib’s point was that science, as science, may not be able to ask beyond that splash with integrity? That that is the ...[text shortened]... two-dimensional brain into two-dimensional concepts in order to speak at all—even to ourselves…[/b]

I agree, it should show us that there could be things, or a being, that
our science cannot touch with integrity. If one says that science can
see and show us all there is to see, they need to know about their
built in blinders. It isn't that those blinders are a flaw, they simply
have the proper limitations in mind for what we can see and measure.
Yet at the same time, because of those blinders, the unknown if
meaningful will always be beyond sciences reach and possibly screwing
up what is thought of as solid measurements.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree, it should show us that there could be things, or a being, that
our science cannot touch with integrity. If one says that science can
see and show us all there is to see, they need to know about their
built in blinders. It isn't that those blinders are a flaw, they simply
have the proper limitations in mind for what we can see and measure.
Yet ...[text shortened]... beyond sciences reach and possibly screwing
up what is thought of as solid measurements.
Kelly

So you are saying god would be a higher dimensional being who
sees our universe as we would see a map. There is nothing wrong
with speculations like that of course, the only thing wrong with it
is this: You view such a universe in a limited way. Suppose for a
moment, this universe contains life other than god. Suppose there
is a whole multidimensional ecology in that system. Then it would
be reasonable to suppose there would be 5th dimensional (or whatever
number is required) grass, maybe X dimensional 'birds', trees,
roads, cars(transport), predators, prey, etc. Intelligent creatures.
True gods. Regular dudes like us but X dimensional.
Given all that, it would be a HUGE mistake to see someone displaying
powers that we as 4th dimensional beings would view as impossible,
a mistake on our part to automatically call such a being "God".
What if your god turns out to be the equivalent of a recalcitrant
5 year old? The words of the bible would seem to me to indicate that
if those words were true, you could be loving a god that is just a
power hungry kid (kid in this sense being a 'person' who is very
immature) This is a view you cannot ignore given your prediliction
to be able to speculate about the possiblity of multiple dimensions
in the first place. Given that sort of speculation, you cannot know
if some being showing up in our limited sphere as being a true god
or just a kid toying with us all. For that matter it could explain my
objection to religion in general which I have said time and time again:
They can't all be right since there are so many diametrically opposed
rules generated by these religions. So from a multi-dimensional
perspective, we could be innundated by every a$$hole who wants to
stir up the natives in 4 space. Could explain why religions only last
for a few thousand years at most. Could explain a lot of things.
The problem for you is, suppose such a being, only a kid but
X dimensional, shows up here and can do really powerful stuff from
our limited viewpoint, has tricks to make good or bad weather,
start fires, kill by force of will, bring people back to life, etc.
How are we supposed to know the level of such a being. To just
fall on your knees and proclaim it to be god could just be feeding its
ego and it starts liking all the praise then comes up with statements
like "I am a Jealous God" etc. How are we to know just what level of
godliness such a being posseses? It would be better to be on our
own than to be under the thumb of such a being.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So you are saying god would be a higher dimensional being who
sees our universe as we would see a map. There is nothing wrong
with speculations like that of course, the only thing wrong with it
is this: You view such a universe in a limited way. Suppose for a
moment, this universe contains life other than god. Suppose there
is a whole multidimensional ...[text shortened]... being posseses? It would be better to be on our
own than to be under the thumb of such a being.

I actually think God sees everything much better than we see a
map.

My views about God are not pure speculation so much as they are
drawn from scripture and experience. I don't believe there is a
universe filled with various dimensions inhabited by gods with
mine being one of many. Since I have placed my trust in scripture
I believe it when it says in:

Isaiah 45:5-6 (New International Version)

“5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other."

So for me there is only one God and there are none beside Him.
It isn't a matter of picking from a list of those I want to align
myself to. It is purely a matter of me acknowledging my creator
and the sustainer of my life, living out my life within God’s grace
and mercy in Christ Jesus, doing those things I believe are true
and worth doing.

I agree with you that there are a lot of (for lack of a better word)
wack jobs out there with various views and opinions about God,
gods, and nothing. Opinions are plentyful on what God is and
what God requires, or what gods are, and what the gods require,
or what nothing is, and what that means. Seeing that there are
various views about diety does not change the reality of diety
any more than having various views the moon will change what
moon really is. What is truth, that is the important thing, not
that people can be evil in the name of something good, or that
they can do good things in the name of something evil.

As far as being on your own goes, did you form yourself in your
mother's womb? Do you hold the very molecules of your body
together by the power of your word? Do you bless your actions
and cause you and your family safety, fortune, and health? Did
you create and hold together the universe you live in? Do you
cause the earth to be fruitful so that it can sustain you and yours?
If not, if you don’t keep it together for you, I’d say your life and
all that you have you should be thankful for, and the one you
should thank for it all is the creator and sustainer of all life. You
are not your own, and neither are those around you, and as such
those around us should be treated with respect and love, because
they are loved by the one that loves us.

Since my view is one of many, my ideas of God, gods, and
nothing are one among many, I’d suggest asking God to become
real to you and to dispel the falseness that plagues this broken and
fallen universe. Since the only one that can really prove God is real,
is God Himself, you just have to be authentic, honest, and believing
if you really want God to respond to your prayers. I like the fact
that God said in scripture that one prayer He will grant is for
wisdom, this is a good place to start.
Kelly

As far as being on your own goes, did you form yourself in your
mother's womb? Do you hold the very molecules of your body
together by the power of your word? Do you bless your actions
and cause you and your family safety, fortune, and health? Did
you create and hold together the universe you live in? Do you
cause the earth to be fruitful so that it can sustain you and yours?
If not, if you don’t keep it together for you, I’d say your life and
all that you have you should be thankful for, and the one you
should thank for it all is the creator and sustainer of all life. You
are not your own, and neither are those around you, and as such
those around us should be treated with respect and love, because
they are loved by the one that loves us.

By being on our own I don't mean me personally, I mean the
whole human race and the whole planet and solar system and by
extension, the whole universe.
The only love that counts to me is the love of my friends and family.
That is my personal savior. You see bums in the street with no-one
to love them and they die terrible isolated deaths but its clear you
need loved ones around when your time to die comes, not some
lonely isolated death under a bridge. There are some native
americans, however, who do just that, but they have a loving family
and a long tradition of having some last rites and then they are gone
in the middle of the night to die on some mountaintop or a glacier.
That at least is dying with love around you. The hypothetical love
of a god who tells one race to do this, tells another to do the opposite,
that god to me is capricious, vain, egotistical, jealous, just like the
bible says, I don't want to be in the same universe with such an
insane creature. I don't believe a real god would rule with such
ferocity, he/she/it would treat every human the same. That is
the opposite of what is happening on our planet.
Just because 2 billion people believe in the god of Christ or another
billion believe in Allah does not make truth. People don't make truth
of god, GOD makes truth of god, and I have seen precious little in
that regard on this planet, making me more sure than ever the god
you think you love is toying with you like someone picking up a sick
mouse, the mouse doesn't know the motives of the person picking him
up, it might be intended to feed a pet snake, the mouse can't know
that, or it might be headed to an animal hospital. Either way, till
its over and done, the mouse knows nothing of the motives of the
person picking him up. Same with humans, you can profess to know
what god is like from the day you are born to the day you die, and
billions of people do exactly that, changes nothing. If there is no
god, all 6 billion of us trying desparately to believe in one will not
make a god and if there is a god, all 6 billion of us can deny that
fact and not make it go away. Humans don't know anything in this
regard. If god does not appear to all, the ones who say he does is
living a delusion because there is nothing about any one human that
would makes us any differant from another in a true gods eye (if they
have eyes). Even Idi Amin would recieve the same message from a
true god and I can say for sure he never got the word. So if the
worse ones among us never got the word, the ones who need it the
most, then how do you propose to make someone who is a decent
person believe any message from a proported god?

Originally posted by sonhouse
As far as being on your own goes, did you form yourself in your
mother's womb? Do you hold the very molecules of your body
together by the power of your word? Do you bless your actions
and cause you and your family safety, fortune, and health? Did
you create and hold together the universe you live in? Do you
cause the earth to be fruitful so that ...[text shortened]... do you propose to make someone who is a decent
person believe any message from a proported god?

I'm in the middle of my work week, I'll get to this when my next
set of days off roll around. Your post requires more thought than
just a off the cuff type I have time for now.
Kelly

Good to see you have to think about it!