1. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Sep '14 10:50
    DANIEL 7:25
    He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws -- and they shall be given into his hands until a time and times and the dividing of a time.

    DANIEL 12:7
    It shall be for a time, times, and half a time that he can scatter the power of the holy people.

    REVELATION 11:2
    The holy city they tread under foot forty and two months.

    REVELATION 11:3
    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

    REVELATION 12:6
    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    REVELATION 12:14
    And the woman was given wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wildneress, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    REVELATION 13:5
    And there was given to the beast a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given to him to continue fourty and two months.

    These are the seven places in the Bible that tell of the extremely special amount of time that the fearful Anti-Christ power would persecute and wage war in the endtimes.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 11:193 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    DANIEL 7:25
    He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws -- and they shall be given into his hands until a time and times and the dividing of a time.

    DANIEL 12:7
    It shall be for a time, times, and half a time that he can scatter the power of the holy people.

    REV ...[text shortened]... amount of time that the fearful Anti-Christ power would persecute and wage war in the endtimes.
    And though there may be tribulations or various kinds and even supernatural calamities which scientists cannot explain, the great tribulation is this three and one half years of the close of this age.

    And this commences at the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation. This time is not the First, Second, Third, or Fourth Trumpets and not the Sixth Seal.

    It is the great tribulation commencing from the falling of the star from heaven to open the abyss in Revelation 9:1,2.

    It is also indicated by the casting down of Satan by the rapture of the man-child and the service of the good angels -

    " ... Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12b)


    The WOE of the above passage is expressed as the three WOEs commencing with the Fifth trumpet. That is when the star (a personage) is cast down to earth and commences the terrible time of the three WOES - trumpets 5,6, and 7.

    Revelation 8:11 - 9:1

    "And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, WOE, WOE, WOE, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet [#5,#6,#7] sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet!

    "And the FIFTH angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven FALLEN to the earth, and to him was given the key of pit of the abyss."



    Are the first 4 trumpets bad?
    Yes.

    Is the opening of the Sixth Seal disturbing?
    Yes, to say the least.

    But the great tribulation, the short time, the three thousand two hundred and sixty days commences at the Fifth trumpet.

    These two passages are not chronologically sequencial. But rather they are reflexive of each other referring to the same event.

    "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev. 12:9)

    "And the fifth angel trumpeted , and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss." (Rev. 9:1)

    "To HIM ... was given ..." proves that the "star" is a being. It is the same Satan and the Devil who was cast down in Revelation 12.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 11:254 edits
    How do I know that the Fifth Trumpet with its fallen star in chapter 9 and the expulsion of the Dragon in chapter 12 are not sequential ?

    Shouldn't they be chronologically following one after the other ?

    How do I know that in this case the two signs are speaking of the same event ?

    I know because of chapters 10 and 11 - the Angel opening the little scroll.

    After chapter 10 and 11 there is a re-visiting of before mentioned previous matters again with a certain different focus.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 13:21
    Originally posted by sonship
    And though there may be tribulations or various kinds and even supernatural calamities which scientists cannot explain, the great tribulation is this three and one half years of the close of this age.

    And this commences at the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation. This time is not the First, Second, Third, or Fourth Trumpets and not the Sixth Seal.

    It is the ...[text shortened]... b] "star"
    is a being. It is the same Satan and the Devil who was cast down in Revelation 12.[/b]
    TYPO. I'm sorry. I meant one thousand not three thousand.

    But the great tribulation, the short time, the [one] thousand two hundred and sixty days commences at the Fifth trumpet.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 13:22
    Latter I will explain something of the structure of Revelation and how it repeats matters.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Sep '14 13:502 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    And though there may be tribulations or various kinds and even supernatural calamities which scientists cannot explain, the great tribulation is this three and one half years of the close of this age.

    And this commences at the Fifth Trumpet in Revelation. This time is not the First, Second, Third, or Fourth Trumpets and not the Sixth Seal.

    It is the ...[text shortened]... b] "star"
    is a being. It is the same Satan and the Devil who was cast down in Revelation 12.[/b]
    Don't forget to go back to Revelation 6 after John see the martyred servants and brethren with the opening of the fifth seal and John continues with:

    I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the [commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” [/b]

    (Revelation 6:12-17 NASB)

    The above fifth and sixth seal corresponds to these events explained by Jesus below:

    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    (Matthew 24:21-22, 29-31 NKJV)

    And from the apostle Peter,

    ‘The sun will be turned into darkness
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
    ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

    (Acts 2:20-21 NASB)

    And from the prophet Joel,

    Before them the earth quakes,
    The heavens tremble,
    The sun and the moon grow dark
    And the stars lose their brightness.
    The Lord utters His voice before His army;
    Surely His camp is very great,
    For strong is he who carries out His word.
    The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome,
    And who can endure it?

    (Joel 2:10-11 NASB)
  7. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 15:43
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Don't forget to go back to Revelation 6 after John see the martyred servants and brethren with the opening of the fifth seal and John continues with:

    I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and [b]the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to ...[text shortened]... the Lord is indeed great and very awesome,
    And who can endure it?

    (Joel 2:10-11 NASB)
    You have a point. But notice also that the intensity of the judgments of the trumpets increase.

    At first they touch only the vegetation and the environment.
    It is with the Fifth Trumpet that they begin to touch MAN directly.

    Trumpet 1 - a third part of the earth burned up, a third part of trees and sea damaged. (Rev. 8:7)

    Trumpet 2 - further damage on the sea, and sea life destroyed, ships damaged. (vs.7,8)

    Trumpet 3 - third part of rivers damaged, some men die because of poisoned waters. (vs.10,11)

    Trumpet 4 - damage to sunlight, moon light, and star light by a third, damage to the normal daylight. (vs12).

    Notice that all those these judgments are bad to the environment and even cause some death, not yet is man himself directly touched. Am I right?

    There is an interruption as the eagle announces that the next three trumpets - Trumpet 5, Trumpet 6, and Trumpet 7 (the negative aspect) are set apart as the three Woes.

    " ... Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the REMAINING TRUMPET SOUNDS of the three angels who are about to trumpet." (v.13)

    Now mankind begins to be touched upon himself directly. And this marks the great tribulation.

    Trumpet 5 - torment from demonic locusts whose Head is the Antichrist - a torment of 5 months to those stung. (vs.9 - 11).

    Men will prefer physical death to this torment. They assume that annihilation of physical death will alleviate their suffering.

    Trumpet 6 - a demonic horde of 200,000,000 of horses killing a third of man with fire, smoke, brimestone and harming men (vs. 12 - 21)

    Trumpet 7 - is more intricate because it contains both Positive aspects and Negative aspects. On the negative side it contains the seven last bowls of the wrath of God.

    The point here is that with the Fifth Trumpet humans begin to be directly touched with these horrible judgments. This with other evidence suggests that the great tribulation that has never been and never again will be, commences with the Fifth Trumpet.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Sep '14 16:101 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    You have a point. But notice also that the intensity of the judgments of the trumpets increase.

    At first they touch only the vegetation and the environment.
    It is with the Fifth Trumpet that they begin to touch MAN directly.

    Trumpet 1 - a third part of the earth burned up, a third part of trees and sea damaged. [b] (Rev. 8:7)


    Trumpet 2 - ...[text shortened]... great tribulation that has never been and never again will be, commences with the Fifth Trumpet.[/b]
    I view these trumpet judgments that begin with the opening of seventh seal in Revelation 7 as part of the wrath of God and the lamb that is said is about to come on all the evil men on the earth after the great tribulation as is mentioned with the opening of the sixth seal. See reference below:

    Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    (Revelation 6:15-17)

    This is not part of the great tribulation for the believers, but instead is a great judgment on the wicked.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 16:511 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I view these trumpet judgments that begin with the opening of seventh seal in Revelation 7 as part of the wrath of God and the lamb that is said is about to come on all the evil men on the earth after the great tribulation as is mentioned with the opening of the sixth seal. See reference below:

    [b]Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the comm ...[text shortened]... part of the great tribulation for the believers, but instead is a great judgment on the wicked.
    Do you believe that when the Sixth Seal is opened, for the REMAINDER of the months and years to come the sight of God and the Lamb Jesus Christ with a peeled back cosmos is visible to all the earth until the millennium ?

    You have the torment of five months at the Fifth Trumpet. And you have one thousand two hundred and sixty DAYS from of the prophesying of the two witnesses of chapter 11.

    Do you mean that throughout these years, unceasingly, the world will view in the sky -

    "And heaven REMOVED like a SCROLL being rolled up" and the face of God and of the Lamb is glaring DOWN upon every surface area of the ROUND earth for AT LEAST three years or more ?
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Sep '14 18:552 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    Do you believe that when the Sixth Seal is opened, for the REMAINDER of the months and years to come the sight of God and the Lamb Jesus Christ with a peeled back cosmos is visible to all the earth until the millennium ?

    You have the torment of five months at the Fifth Trumpet. And you have one thousand two hundred and sixty DAYS from of the prophesying ...[text shortened]... mb is glaring DOWN upon every surface area of the ROUND earth for AT LEAST three years or more ?
    I believe these accounts are similar to the Genesis account of creation in which man is first said to be created both male and female and then later it gives more detail by saying Adam was created first then how Eve was created from Adam's rib.

    We don't have to have all our ducks lined up in a row to see that whatever the details are that the rapture comes AFTER the Great Tribulation, instead of before, because Jesus said so clearly in scripture (Matthew 24).
  11. Standard membersonship
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    11 Sep '14 19:31
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I believe these accounts are similar to the Genesis account of creation in which man is first said to be created both male and female and then later it gives more detail by saying Adam was created first then how Eve was created from Adam's rib.

    We don't have to have all our ducks lined up in a row to see that whatever the details are that the rapture comes AFTER the Great Tribulation, instead of before, because Jesus said so clearly in scripture (Matthew 24).


    I don't think your answer was quite clear enough.

    You teach there is one Post Tribulation rapture of the whole church.
    You teach that at the beginning of the Great Tribulation the Sixth Seal has the heavens roll back and the sight of God and the Lamb is viewed by those on earth.

    Now in Matthew 24:40,41 two men will be in the field going about their daily work, but above their heads in the sky the universe is rolled back and God and the Lamb have been seen there, angry, for at least three plus years ?

    Do you mean the same is true of the two women grinding at the mill ? If they should take a break and go outside and look up, they see what has been there since the opening of the sixth seal, namely the heavens rolled back and God and the Lamb seen angrily gazing down on the surface of the earth?

    Would the same be true regardless if the two men in the field were working in fields in China or fields in the USA ?

    You do make the Thessalonian discribed rapture this scene -

    "At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
    Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left." (Matt. 24:40,41)


    Is that scene over their heads at this time at the end of the Great Tribulation ?

    If not then why not ?
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Sep '14 20:527 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] I believe these accounts are similar to the Genesis account of creation in which man is first said to be created both male and female and then later it gives more detail by saying Adam was created first then how Eve was created from Adam's rib.

    We don't have to have all our ducks lined up in a row to see that whatever the details are that the rapt ...[text shortened]... over their heads at this time at the end of the Great Tribulation ?

    If not then why not ?
    No I do not teach that. You are creating a strawman.

    The rapture is ONLY of those believers remaining alive AFTER the Great Tribulation of those days which is the wrath of Satan the devil.

    The time is immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation that the opening of the Sixth Seal reveals the coming of the wrath of the Lamb on the wicked.

    THE FIFTH SEAL IS OPENED

    When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

    (REVELATION 6:9-11 NASB)
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    12 Sep '14 01:02
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    DANIEL 7:25
    He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws -- and they shall be given into his hands until a time and times and the dividing of a time.

    DANIEL 12:7
    It shall be for a time, times, and half a time that he can scatter the power of the holy people.

    REV ...[text shortened]... amount of time that the fearful Anti-Christ power would persecute and wage war in the endtimes.
    a time, and times, and half a time = 1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years, yes? This would be about the same as 1260 days, or 42 months, as you say.

    Keep in mind this is AFTER the AntiChrist is revealed and he shows his true mission upon the earth. For the 3 1/2 years BEFORE this is when he comes to power and the whole world comes to follow him. The Bible warns of him when it speaks of "the abomination of desolation" (spoken of by Daniel) standing in "the holy place". This is thought to prophesy the building and dedication of the third Temple on the Temple Mount and a treaty between Israel and (I'm not sure who right now, I actually can't remember who it's supposed to be).

    So the 3 1/2 years BEFORE he is revealed and the 3 1/2 years AFTER, are the seven years of the Great Tribulation. Then follows the return of our Lord Jesus Christ to finally defeat Satan and death and hell and establish his Kingdom.
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    12 Sep '14 01:251 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    No I do not teach that. You are creating a strawman.


    I am not creating strawman arguments at all. I am trying to understand your logic.

    Anyway, you're convinced that you understand what you're saying.
  15. Standard memberDeepThought
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    12 Sep '14 01:33
    Revelations is only just a part of the Bible. There are serious arguments in favour of leaving it out. You may want to take the precise predictions with a pinch of salt.
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