1. Standard memberAgerg
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    15 Dec '12 18:256 edits
    This thread is tangential to the guns??? topic. The pro-gun people see that the problem is with only people (as opposed to guns), and that without guns people will just find other ways to kill people (presumably with the same ease and efficiency as that afforded by guns)
    If that is correct (i.e. there exists a sequence of arguments and counter counter arguments on their side such that any rational person would be forced to agree with them that *only* people are the problem) then exactly how do we arrange for a world where everyone gets along, don't want to kill other people, and it is ok for all responsible people to hold killing machines (which begs the question - why would we need them in such a world!???)?

    If you cannot see such a world as attainable, such that there will always be an subset of all humans that want to and will find a way to kill people, then how can we possibly accept that
    gunsReveal Hidden Content
    which are explictly designed for killing (as opposed to knives - designed for cutting things, basball bats - designed for hitting baseballs, cars - designed for transporting humans long distances
    (which empower those with a mindset to kill to go out and kill in large numbers) are not a part of the problem!? 😕
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 Dec '12 15:281 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    This thread is tangential to the guns??? topic. The pro-gun people see that the problem is with only people (as opposed to guns), and that without guns people will just find other ways to kill people (presumably with the same ease and efficiency as that afforded by guns)
    If that is correct (i.e. there exists a sequence of arguments and counter counter argume with a mindset to kill to go out and kill in large numbers) are not a part of the problem!? 😕
    If you had a world where people didn't want to kill people no matter how many
    guns were in their hands would they? It isn't the guns that go after children,
    men, or women it is those that hold them. A culture that finds its pleasure in
    the pain and suffering in others, or the death of others will produce people who
    want to live it out. Do you think our culture from its games, music, films, and
    I'll throw in books due to someone else's question could avoid producing such
    people?
    Kelly
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    16 Dec '12 15:40
    Originally posted by Agerg
    This thread is tangential to the guns??? topic. The pro-gun people see that the problem is with only people (as opposed to guns), and that without guns people will just find other ways to kill people (presumably with the same ease and efficiency as that afforded by guns)
    If that is correct (i.e. there exists a sequence of arguments and counter counter argume ...[text shortened]... with a mindset to kill to go out and kill in large numbers) are not a part of the problem!? 😕
    Human Depravity never goes on holiday. Remove weapons, all weapons... those so inclined will simply revert to sharp sticks

    and jagged stones as our great ancestors did. Answers relate to prevention and containment, if freedom is to be protected.
    -
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    16 Dec '12 16:573 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    If you had a world where people didn't want to kill people no matter how many
    guns were in their hands would they? It isn't the guns that go after children,
    men, or women it is those that hold them. A culture that finds its pleasure in
    the pain and suffering in others, or the death of others will produce people who
    want to live it out. Do you think our ...[text shortened]... 'll throw in books due to someone else's question could avoid producing such
    people?
    Kelly
    I readily accept that there exist humans who want to cause other people suffering; unlike you I also accept that such people have existed since the very first humans were around, and will always exist.

    If it isn't guns that kill people, then am I to assume you'd be ok with people walking around with grenades, flamethrowers, weaponised anthrax, briefcase nukes, and so on...? I mean, these don't go after children either - only the people who want to kill go after children!
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    16 Dec '12 16:59
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Human Depravity never goes on holiday. Remove weapons, all weapons... those so inclined will simply revert to sharp sticks

    and jagged stones as our great ancestors did. Answers relate to prevention and containment, if freedom is to be protected.
    -
    As mentioned to Kelly, I acknowledge there are some sick humans in this world (and there always will be)... the thing is, sharp sticks don't have the killing potential of guns though do they?

    Is it possible to go on a school rampage killing dozens of children and staff equipped only with a pointy stick? 😕
  6. Dublin Ireland
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    16 Dec '12 18:19
    Originally posted by Agerg
    As mentioned to Kelly, I acknowledge there are some sick humans in this world (and there always will be)... the thing is, sharp sticks don't have the killing potential of guns though do they?

    Is it possible to go on a school rampage killing dozens of children and staff equipped only with a pointy stick? 😕
    So long as humans roam the planet,
    there will be trouble.

    It is not in man's nature to be content with his lot.

    So long as there is man there will be evil.

    Greed, hatred, envy, war and eventually destruction.

    I predict that the world will not end, but humankind will eventually become extinct.
    By what means who knows? Nature will then reclaim the planet, as it has done
    in Chernobyl. There is a place that has not seen man in 50 years or more.
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    16 Dec '12 18:56
    Originally posted by Agerg
    As mentioned to Kelly, I acknowledge there are some sick humans in this world (and there always will be)... the thing is, sharp sticks don't have the killing potential of guns though do they?

    Is it possible to go on a school rampage killing dozens of children and staff equipped only with a pointy stick? 😕
    an indecent happened in my secondary school the year after i left is a good example of the difference between guns and knifes. a man walked into the school and attempted to attack a classroom full of children. he managed to hurt two children, tragically one of them died, but he was quickly wrestled to the floor by teachers. i think it would have been a totally different story if he had been armed with a gun.
  8. Joined
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    16 Dec '12 18:56
    Originally posted by Agerg
    This thread is tangential to the guns??? topic. The pro-gun people see that the problem is with only people (as opposed to guns), and that without guns people will just find other ways to kill people (presumably with the same ease and efficiency as that afforded by guns)
    If that is correct (i.e. there exists a sequence of arguments and counter counter argume ...[text shortened]... with a mindset to kill to go out and kill in large numbers) are not a part of the problem!? 😕
    I would hope that if no one wanted to kill anyone else, there would be no reason for guns to even exist?
  9. Standard memberAgerg
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    16 Dec '12 19:133 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I would hope that if no one wanted to kill anyone else, there would be no reason for guns to even exist?
    I preempted that one at the end of my first paragraph: "(which begs the question - why would we need them in such a world!???)? "

    The main thrust of my OP however is: is such a world possible? and if not, given we'll always have killers, shouldn't society make it more difficult to kill in huge numbers!?
    People like KellyJay seem to be of the mindset that 30 deaths is no worse than 1 death - I and I hope many others think differently.
  10. Standard memberAgerg
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    16 Dec '12 19:251 edit
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    an indecent happened in my secondary school the year after i left is a good example of the difference between guns and knifes. a man walked into the school and attempted to attack a classroom full of children. he managed to hurt two children, tragically one of them died, but he was quickly wrestled to the floor by teachers. i think it would have been a totally different story if he had been armed with a gun.
    Much as it is a tragedy that these things happen (in particular this one), the demonstration that this sicko's killing potential was limited by his choice of weapon set ought also to trigger the thought in gun-lovers that you easily think of: "what if he had a gun instead?"

    I fear it will take many more serious shootings before certain americans make the correllation between [easy to use tools to kill lots of people] and [lots of people dying] 😞
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    16 Dec '12 19:261 edit
    Isaiah 65:21-25:
    21  And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.
    25 “The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” Jehovah has said.

    Psalm 46:8-10
    Good News Translation (GNT)

    8 Come and see what the Lord has done.
    See what amazing things he has done on earth.
    9 He stops wars all over the world;
    he breaks bows, destroys spears,
    and sets shields on fire.
    10 “Stop fighting,” he says, “and know that I am God,
    supreme among the nations,
    supreme over the world.”


    Proverbs 2:21-22
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    21 For the upright will dwell in the land,
    And the blameless will remain in it;
    22 But the wicked will be cut off from the earth,
    And the unfaithful will be uprooted from it.





    A real hope for us in the future....
  12. Standard memberAgerg
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    16 Dec '12 19:281 edit
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Isaiah 65:21-25:
    21  And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen o ...[text shortened]... me among the nations,
    supreme over the world.”



    A real hope for us in the future....
    Please...enough of the scripture; not only is it boring, and pointless, but I also have to scroll down farther before I can hit the reply button 😞
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    16 Dec '12 19:31
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Please...enough of the scripture; not only is it boring, and pointless, but I also have to scroll down farther before I can hit the reply button 😞
    I know your view but others here may like to see what the Bible says. There seems to be no hope of solving these problems that are happening and no one has the answers.
  14. Standard memberAgerg
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    16 Dec '12 19:391 edit
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I know your view but others here may like to see what the Bible says. There seems to be no hope of solving these problems that are happening and no one has the answers.
    There is no answer to how we stop humans killing humans* - there is however an answer to how we limit the number of human killings - your "G"od has nothing to do with the latter.




    ---------------------------------
    *"God" is about as useful an answer as magic lets-all-get-along-and-not-kill-each-other fairydust - neither exist
  15. Joined
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    16 Dec '12 21:36
    Originally posted by Agerg
    There is no answer to how we stop humans killing humans* - there is however an answer to how we limit the number of human killings - your "G"od has nothing to do with the latter.




    ---------------------------------
    *"God" is about as useful an answer as magic lets-all-get-along-and-not-kill-each-other fairydust - neither exist
    You are welcome to your belief. If you don't want me to post here with my beliefs let me know.
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