1. Melbourne, Australia
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    27 Mar '11 02:36
    To Mr Andrew Hamiltion (and interested others),

    Leaving "God" and "design" theme out of it, may I simplify as I understand the current scientific understanding of the evolvement of life.

    At the "beginning" (can't have a beginning without time, which the Singularity established, but we will skip over that) there was a "Singularity". Its origin is unestablished, as far as I know. From it occurred the "Big Bang" ejecting all the base matter/energy the Universe would ever use in well under a second. Time-Space (as the continuum of TOR) were also established in that brief moment.

    [This is accepting the Big Bang Standard model, but acknowledging those in the scientific community who have the temerity to question such, with strong arguments and pointing out the flaws still inherent in the model. However, let's go with it.]

    The ejected matter was initially ONLY hydrogen atoms, the simplest atom, with basically one proton and one electron, perhaps give or take a neutron or two. (This fact alone is incredibly amazing, everything we know has evolved from this simplest of all atoms, unit ONE!)

    Suns were later required to form the rest of the elements as those clouds of hydrogen began to clump together randomly under the influence of gravity, one of the three known forces underlying everything. Electromagnetic force, gravity, the strong and weak atomic forces all required were apparently also established with the Big Bang from the "Singularity" in those brief moments.

    That is the starting point, Please correct any errors but the drift as far as I know is correct.

    Now let's look at that wonky evolved eye and the brain cells etc attached and of which it consists. Its amusing, somewhat chaotic structure that evolved is nevertheless very effective in its many forms, and a solution to an almost insurmountable problem as it evolved from essentially what were hollow tubes of barely sensing and eyeless living tissues, living "matter", full of highly coded DNA, that just happened to emerge from stone-cold lifeless hydrogen atoms, rocks etc, along the way.

    All cells are incredibly complex and function holistically with interacting molecular and protein building processes whose complexity outdo any highly engineered man made structure of the highest order, and without which such would not be.

    Back to that hydrogen atom, let's look at it more closely. The physicists as they have delved deeper and deeper into it sub particles, the very base of all matter, have found that in some strange way they seem to only come into a hard particle-like state under the influence of some form of mindlike "something". Various theories about this, but the basic idea seems irrefutable on the evidence.

    They also appear to neither exist nor not exist, and can "exist" in two incompatible states at once in a "superposition" that appears to be a "cloud of probabilities", much to the perplexity of many disgruntled hard-minded physicists. (Not all, some have become almost-Buddhists).

    These particles have non-locality properties, which means that one polarised subparticle knows what the other linked polarised subparticle and its changes are, virtually immediately, apparently EVEN IF ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE UNIVERSE! cf: Alain Aspect et al.

    This is NOT New Age 'bunkum'. Nothing has been established in a century of trying to disprove this strange nature that so upset Mr Einstein, who spent the remainder of his brilliant life trying to do so, unsuccesfully. Rather these strange properties are now being used in developing our greatest modern scientific accomplishments in numerous fields. In all the current amazing advancements of science, medicine, technology or computers, something of the use of these strange properties is found.

    Mr Hamilton. I have little difficulty with anything you say, except with the use of the word "mindless".
  2. Cape Town
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    27 Mar '11 06:51
    Originally posted by Taoman
    The ejected matter was initially ONLY hydrogen atoms, the simplest atom, with basically one proton and one electron, perhaps give or take a neutron or two. (This fact alone is incredibly amazing, everything we know has evolved from this simplest of all atoms, unit ONE!)
    Everything is amazing. 1+1=2 is amazing. The fact that all the integers can be obtained by adding up 1's is amazing. Unless you've seen it before then it gets rather boring. But what do you really want to say? You clearly want to say something more than 'its amazing' but are stopping short.

    Back to that hydrogen atom, let's look at it more closely. The physicists as they have delved deeper and deeper into it sub particles, the very base of all matter, have found that in some strange way they seem to only come into a hard particle-like state under the influence of some form of mindlike "something". Various theories about this, but the basic idea seems irrefutable on the evidence.
    There is no mindlike something required. This comes from a misunderstanding of the physics (and a desire of people with beliefs similar to yours or of theists to give extra credit to the mind).

    Mr Hamilton. I have little difficulty with anything you say, except with the use of the word "mindless".
    Why? Apart from your one erroneous claim regarding quantum physics, you have not mentioned the requirement for a mind. All you have done is said "the universe is incredibly complex". We know that. What else is new?
    If you are arguing that complexity implies the existence of a mind, then make that argument. Leaving it as an insinuation will get you nowhere.
  3. Joined
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    27 Mar '11 11:522 edits
    Originally posted by Taoman
    To Mr Andrew Hamiltion (and interested others),

    Leaving "God" and "design" theme out of it, may I simplify as I understand the current scientific understanding of the evolvement of life.

    At the "beginning" (can't have a beginning without time, which the Singularity established, but we will skip over that) there was a "Singularity". Its origin is unestab with anything you say, except with the use of the word "mindless".
    “....the strong and weak atomic forces all required were apparently also ESTABLISHED with the Big Bang from the "Singularity" in those brief moments. ...”

    I could be wrong here because I am not an expert but I think “ ESTABLISHED” may be the wrong word here. It may have been 'inevitable' that the forces that exist would exist and exist the way they do.

    “...living "matter", full of highly coded DNA, that just happened to emerge from stone-cold lifeless hydrogen atoms, rocks etc, along the way. ...”

    the first protocell almost certainly didn't have DNA nor any of the complexity (such as proteins etc) of modern life.

    “...All cells are incredibly complex and function holistically with interacting molecular and protein building processes ...”

    they are now. But the first protocell would have NONE of that complexity and interdependency

    “...The physicists as they have delved deeper and deeper into it sub particles, the very base of all matter, have found that in some strange way they seem to only come into a hard particle-like state under the influence of some form of mindlike "something". ...”

    that is an extremely vague statement. I mean, “...they have found that “in some strange way” they “seem” to only come into a “hard particle-like state“ “under the influence” of “some form of mindlike "something"....” I have no idea what you are referring to. “in some strange way” that is “strange” how? In what way does it “seem” to? And what is a “hard particle-like state“ ? And in what sense is it “ under the influence of.”..? and what kind of “something” and in what sense is it “mindlike”?

    “...Various theories about this, but ...”

    “ Various theories about” what?

    “...They also appear to neither exist nor not exist, ...”

    that is according to one interpretation of quantum physics that may be completely false so I should not take too much notice of that claim.

    “...much to the perplexity of many disgruntled hard-minded physicists. ...”

    why “ disgruntled” ?
  4. Melbourne, Australia
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    27 Mar '11 15:42
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    “....the strong and weak atomic forces all required were apparently also ESTABLISHED with the Big Bang from the "Singularity" in those brief moments. ...”

    I could be wrong here because I am not an expert but I think “ ESTABLISHED” may be the wrong word here. It may have been 'inevitable' that the forces that exist would exist and exist the way the ...[text shortened]... e perplexity of many disgruntled hard-minded physicists. ...”

    why “ disgruntled” ?
    It astounds me first that both yourself and tw fail to acknowledge in any serious way the immense discussion amongst scientists as to the apparent connection of consciousness with the collapse of superposition. a superposition that IS commonly explained as the probabilities of wave equations. Where are these "probabilities"? And where is the superposition? It is the fact that underlies the phenomenon of quantum tunnelling phenonenon, being used more and more in applied science, wherein particles get through impenetrable barriers, by correctly appearing on the other side in relation to its probability according to the equations.

    Where is this superposition that apparently arises from wave equations?

    I am definitely vague when I refer to it, not only because its nature still has not been established scientifically, but also the best examinations of the problem by scientists themselves describe them as "neither there" nor "not there". THIS IS AN OBSERVED PHENOMENON, NOT A THEORY.

    In chemistry it has been shown that this very property of "neither there, nor not there" is required for molecular bonding. I expect you do know that electrons are not at all like little "planets" going round the nucleus in nicely described rings and planes. Its impossible to actually locate them at all, but we know they are there somewhere. This is exactly in accord with the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna's exegesis of the necessity for "emptiness" for things to manifest.

    The possibility that there is some form of guiding or holonomic "field similar to the qualities of a "mind" IS A THEORY but, contrary to your light dismissal of the whole endeavour, such theories have been discussed in detail and extensively by such as Bohm, Penrose and Pribram and many others. I don't say whichever particular theories are "right" but simply it is ingenuous of you both to skirt or pretend that there is no problem really and can be easily dismissed. You are both failing to show any ability to grapple with the conundrums other than vague disparaging statements.

    There is every indication about the weird behaviour of the wave-particle very definitely made by such giants as Wheeler and Planck who grappled with the apparent role of some sort of consciousness connection of the observer.
    You may not agree but please do not dismiss the principal discussion in quantum physics with such aplomb or perhaps possible lack of acquaintance with the discussion.
    You totally ignore the proven phenomenon of non-locality. How do you fit that into your materialist viewpoint please? Have a go at it, eh? Why and how does this phenomenon exist in a materialistic Newtonian universe? This attitude of total denial of the problem, often by disparagement, epitomises what is known as "shut up and just keep calculating" attitude of materialist scientists because it challenges their whole mechanistic paradigm. It will come down eventually.

    Just what is your materialistic explanations of how totally insentient electrons etc change their behaviour according to the intentions of the experiment? They even appear to "know" when they are being tricked into being observed without their "knowing". Its even telling that such experiments have been pursued, do you not think?

    How do particles "know" what the other particles fired separately through slit experiments have done, leaving a wave pattern, that normally requires present interacting waves, even though they were fired slowly one after the other? Or else how has one particle gone through two splits at once, one of the other posits?
    If its not connected to a mindlike property inherent in existence then what is your easily understood 'cause' of such mysterious behaviours?

    The four forces are pretty obviously inevitable, but does that mean they were around before the Big Bang? Where? You have not addressed the time-space conundrum either.

    The other thing is the splitting of hairs over when cellular processes and DNA came into being. The point is that such things arose from atoms of one nucleus and one electron, and later, nothing but rocks, and then the essential water. Living and sentient matter came to be from originally totally inert rocks and gases. And if you do not find that amazing, even by the processes of materialistic evolution, I think you are missing out.
  5. Joined
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    27 Mar '11 16:10
    Originally posted by Taoman
    To Mr Andrew Hamiltion (and interested others),

    Leaving "God" and "design" theme out of it, may I simplify as I understand the current scientific understanding of the evolvement of life.

    At the "beginning" (can't have a beginning without time, which the Singularity established, but we will skip over that) there was a "Singularity". Its origin is unestab ...[text shortened]... with anything you say, except with the use of the word "mindless".
    This is not nearly as big a deal as it is sometimes made out to be.

    Discovery of the workings of the universe will always have a frontier where ideas are tentative and even speculative, and new aspects/entities are posited and tested.

    If it is science, the speculations will be limited to natural phenomena and natural explanations of them. Otherwise it will not be science.

    If the existence of consciousness or mind becomes an necessary implication of a satisfactory explanation of the workings of the universe, and consciousness or mind is not reducible to the workings of the already-established aspects of the universe, it will be posited as an additional fundamental and NATURAL aspect of the universe.

    Theists will feel vindicated, but they will have to be reminded that the establishment of consciousness or mind as a fundamental aspect of the universe as explained by science does not imply the existence of any supernatural entity. Presumably we will continue to coexist. Theists will continue to fight over whose God really exists, atheists will deny the existence of God, or proclaim inadequate scientific evidence for one, etc.
  6. Account suspended
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    27 Mar '11 22:14
    Originally posted by Taoman
    It astounds me first that both yourself and tw fail to acknowledge in any serious way the immense discussion amongst scientists as to the apparent connection of consciousness with the collapse of superposition. a superposition that IS commonly explained as the probabilities of wave equations. Where are these "probabilities"? And where is the superposition? I ...[text shortened]... processes of materialistic evolution, I think you are missing out.
    I find these types of phenomena fascination, utterly amazing, i wish i was brainy though 🙁
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Mar '11 00:55
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I find these types of phenomena fascination, utterly amazing, i wish i was brainy though 🙁
    Even if we were all geniuses, we would still need God's
    help to understand all of His creations and how he did it.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    28 Mar '11 01:08
    Originally posted by Taoman
    To Mr Andrew Hamiltion (and interested others),

    Leaving "God" and "design" theme out of it, may I simplify as I understand the current scientific understanding of the evolvement of life.

    At the "beginning" (can't have a beginning without time, which the Singularity established, but we will skip over that) there was a "Singularity". Its origin is unestab ...[text shortened]... with anything you say, except with the use of the word "mindless".
    http://athousandyoung.blogspot.com/2010/12/history-and-prehistory-of-everything.html

    I think a lot of those strange sounding concepts like "expansion of space" and "beginning of time" are much simpler and more intuitive than they sound. I think these airy fairy phrases are intended to impress people who don't really understand and don't really want to understand, but like to hear dramatic sounding phrases.

    The physicists as they have delved deeper and deeper into it sub particles, the very base of all matter, have found that in some strange way they seem to only come into a hard particle-like state under the influence of some form of mindlike "something". Various theories about this, but the basic idea seems irrefutable on the evidence.

    What? Are you trying to say something about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? You are also going on about Quantum Entanglement, but you're talking about these things in a pseudo mystical way. Subparticles don't know anything and no information is transferred between them. If I discover one of your hands is the right hand and I therefore deduce that the other hand must be the left hand it's not because the left hand "knew" anything.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Mar '11 03:46
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    http://athousandyoung.blogspot.com/2010/12/history-and-prehistory-of-everything.html

    I think a lot of those strange sounding concepts like "expansion of space" and "beginning of time" are much simpler and more intuitive than they sound. I think these airy fairy phrases are intended to impress people who don't really understand and don't really wan ...[text shortened]... he other hand must be the left hand it's not because the left hand "knew" anything.
    You are right. They have no mind or life. They don't know anything.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Mar '11 04:15
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    http://athousandyoung.blogspot.com/2010/12/history-and-prehistory-of-everything.html

    I think a lot of those strange sounding concepts like "expansion of space" and "beginning of time" are much simpler and more intuitive than they sound. I think these airy fairy phrases are intended to impress people who don't really understand and don't really wan ...[text shortened]... he other hand must be the left hand it's not because the left hand "knew" anything.
    The first part of your history is pure speculation and I can not
    help you with it. But I can help you correct the Jesus entry.
    He was born in Bethlehem (Beit Lahm) about 5 miles south
    of Jerusalem at the time of the Passover in 5 BCE, by todays
    reckoning. He lived for 35 years. He was crucified and died
    on the Passover of 31 CE, by todays reckoning, which was
    on Wednesday of that year. God arose Him from the grave
    three days and three nights later to fullfil a prophecy. He is
    now alive at the right hand of His Father.
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Mar '11 04:30
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The first part of your history is pure speculation and I can not
    help you with it. But I can help you correct the Jesus entry.
    He was born in Bethlehem (Beit Lahm) about 5 miles south
    of Jerusalem at the time of the Passover in 5 BCE, by todays
    reckoning. He lived for 35 years. He was crucified and died
    on the Passover of 31 CE, by todays reckoning, wh ...[text shortened]... and three nights later to fullfil a prophecy. He is
    now alive at the right hand of His Father.
    You mean "alive" by meaning he's 2000+ years old?
    you reckon his still got that charm? Or what? As far as I know Jesus is in a box circling the Earth doing hardcore penence.
    We would all like,(christians anyway), JC to be at one with God but in reality, we just dont know, unless you have some additional information...
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Mar '11 04:36
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    You mean "alive" by meaning he's 2000+ years old?
    you reckon his still got that charm? Or what? As far as I know Jesus is in a box circling the Earth doing hardcore penence.
    We would all like,(christians anyway), JC to be at one with God but in reality, we just dont know, unless you have some additional information...
    Yes, the Holy Spirit revealed it to me.
    Believe it, or not.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Mar '11 04:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Yes, the Holy Spirit revealed it to me.
    Believe it, or not.
    I believe the Holy spirit revealed something to you. Are you sure you are interpretting the message correctly? Remember Gods language is impossible to uderstand literally. I find it more analogy than actual literal descrpition, still I dont doubt that you have been spoken to by the "Holy Spirit"

    You gotta remember that "God" can only speak to you in your terms. The ideas and concepts that you have understood have been filtered down in ideas that you can understand. You can only understand that which is fits in with your interpretation of things.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Mar '11 06:32
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I believe the Holy spirit revealed something to you. Are you sure you are interpretting the message correctly? Remember Gods language is impossible to uderstand literally. I find it more analogy than actual literal descrpition, still I dont doubt that you have been spoken to by the "Holy Spirit"

    You gotta remember that "God" can only speak to you in ...[text shortened]... nderstand. You can only understand that which is fits in with your interpretation of things.
    I did not hear anything. It was like sensing something
    present. Then thoughts came into my head. I don't
    know how to describe it; it somehow made me weep
    and I could not stop. It was like I was weeping for
    the death of Jesus the Christ. Now I know is He is alive!
    Then I knew it must be the Holy Spirit revealing this to me.
    I am no one special, Maybe, that is part of the reason I
    was weeping.
  15. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    28 Mar '11 06:532 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The first part of your history is pure speculation and I can not
    help you with it. But I can help you correct the Jesus entry.
    He was born in Bethlehem (Beit Lahm) about 5 miles south
    of Jerusalem at the time of the Passover in 5 BCE, by todays
    reckoning. He lived for 35 years. He was crucified and died
    on the Passover of 31 CE, by todays reckoning, wh ...[text shortened]... and three nights later to fullfil a prophecy. He is
    now alive at the right hand of His Father.
    Thanks for the details. I will integrate them.

    OK, done. His birth and death are correctly added in.

    I have the Great Flood listed by it's scientific name, the Flandrian Transgression, at about 5000 BCE. Do you agree with that date and what follows it?
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