Afterlife and modern science

Originally posted by Starrman
I'll leave you two to whatever you care to think, it really makes no difference to me. I have shown you what the definition of brain death is, I have attempted to explain it as clearly as I can and you refuse to accept it. You are perhaps the only people in all humanity who think the definition of brain death entails a potential reversal from death to lif othing I can say to make you see otherwise that I have not said already. Enjoy your delusion.

Why are you so sure of this definition. The article you sited says what we used to call dead isn't dead enough (due to modern technology/techiques), so we had to come up with a new term for dead, brain-dead. Is it that far out of possibility that we may need yet another term for dead? That brain-dead isn't dead enough either? Dead used to be considered irreversible just as brain-dead is now. What makes you so sure of this definition of dead?

DF

[Edit] BTW, I'm not the one defining these people as brain-dead. It's a scientist that's doing that. I'm just reporting what I've found.

Originally posted by dj2becker
The way that 'brain dead' has been defined is not falsifiable and is therefore not scientific.

Brain death is not a theory. It's simply a fact. Theories and hypotheses are explanations of phenomena, and must be falsifiable. Brain dead is a clearly defined term, not a theory.

Come on Professor deej, who knows so much about science to educate us professional scientists, this is simple stuff.

Originally posted by dj2becker
So in essence, what makes the statment "Brain death is not reversible" right and the statement "Brain death is reversible" wrong?

Well,, the fact that no brain dead person has ever regained brain function would make the statement "brain death is reversable" wrong, one would think.

Originally posted by dj2becker
What do you mean it’s not a scientific theory? The statement is a summary of the theory. Or are you trying to stipulate that the scientific method was not used to deduce it?

[b]I concede that brain death is reversible. What evidence do you have that brain death is irreversible? This is the question I asked you right at the beginning, and you have still ...[text shortened]... God is defined as the eternal creator of the universe. End of story. What a way to debate.
😀

One. No it's a statement of fact. That is, that the reverse has never occurred.

Two. No brain dead person has ever regained brain function. I'll repeat this for you deej, theories have to falsifiable. Gravity would be falsified if things started floating about all over the place, the statement that brain death is not reversible would be invalidated by brain dead people coming back to concious life.

Three. Any scientific hypothesis has to rest on observational data. Where is your observational data, deej? How many brain dead people have you seen spring out of bed and do handstands?

Four. Because you're a numpty. No god would ever create you.

Five. There is a heao if evidence that contradicts the sole source for your statement (the bible). There is observational data that god might exist, but nothing that cannot be explained by more parsimonious mechanisms, that CAN be tested scientifically.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Then you might want to read some of the research by Dr. Sabom. I do believe he would disagree.

http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

DF

wait, wait, whats the URL again?

Near-death?

Near?

Not actually dead then.

Well THAT proved your point.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
wait, wait, whats the URL again?

Near-death?

Near?

Not actually dead then.

Well THAT proved your point.

Are you actually going to read the article, or just make fun of the site's address?

DF

Originally posted by scottishinnz
wait, wait, whats the URL again?

Near-death?

Near?

Not actually dead then.

Well THAT proved your point.

There are many stories of people who WAS dead, not just near death. I read a book put together by a team of doctors, who interviewed them as soon as they could, and EVERY single person that was ressicated was absolutely positive that there is an afterlife, and said that "It was no dream", 70% said they saw bright lights, and or tunnels, and they all said that their mind was crystal clear. 95% I think said they floated above there bodies, and there is a couple of them that went into other rooms, and described the clothing of someone in a different room, that their physical body could not possibly see. I think it was around 60% said that they went to heaven, and all of them that said went to heaven said there was a wall, or a gate that they could not get past, but they wanted to. 30 -40% said they went to hell, and the nurses on most of them said that the patents screamed and had a horrible time, and even begged not to let them die. One thing I also noticed was that those who tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose on medicine always had a bad experience, whereas the the people who were ressicated from a heart attack had a way higher chance of having a good experience. This is one reason that some scientist think that the experience is a dream, but I disagree.

Both Christian and Muslim reportedly went to heaven and hell, And in the report, all atheist believed in God or afterlife after the event.

Its a good book. They don't point to any conclusions, just tell the stories. they also explain a little bit at how the mind works in near death situations. I had my friend read it who considered himself agnostic, after reading the book, he told me he had no doubt that there was an afterlife, and a God, he still thought it was stupid to worship a God though, and didn't think that worshiping a God would have any affect in the afterlife

If its a "dream" like scientist say it is, then why are all the stories so similar? why are the people who actually had it happen to them so convinced that it wasn't a dream? why are people seeing things in different room, and hearing themselves being pronounced dead?

Originally posted by flyUnity
There are many stories of people who WAS dead, not just near death. I read a book put together by a team of doctors, who interviewed them as soon as they could, and EVERY single person that was ressicated was absolutely positive that there is an afterlife, and said that "It was no dream", 70% said they saw bright lights, and or tunnels, and they all said th ...[text shortened]... ? why are people seeing things in different room, and hearing themselves pronounced dead?

What's the book title Fly?

I think 'dream' isn't the word I'd use. Hallucination might be a better one, caused, perhaps, by oxygen starvation of the brain. Why all so similar? Why do we all breathe in deeply and sharply when someone throws a bucket of freezing water on us? Why do we go out drinking on a nice day and have a greta nice, go out after a bad day at work and have a crap night? There are quite possibly chemically and physological cues and reasons for this (since brain function is dependant on chemistry).

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Are you actually going to read the article, or just make fun of the site's address?

DF

These are extremely considered circumstances though. It was medically induced, controlled, and done in a manner that allows resusitation. I'm no expert on that subject, although I am certain there is a tangible, reasonable explanation.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
These are extremely considered circumstances though. It was medically induced, controlled, and done in a manner that allows resusitation. I'm no expert on that subject, although I am certain there is a tangible, reasonable explanation.

Would that reasonable explanation include the possibility of life after death?

DF

Originally posted by flyUnity
There are many stories of people who WAS dead, not just near death. I read a book put together by a team of doctors, who interviewed them as soon as they could, and EVERY single person that was ressicated was absolutely positive that there is an afterlife, and said that "It was no dream", 70% said they saw bright lights, and or tunnels, and they all said th ...[text shortened]... are people seeing things in different room, and hearing themselves being pronounced dead?

1)Title?
2)Credibility? (give us the name of institution the "study" was conducted)
3)Demographics?
4)Are you insinuating people who commit suicide go to hell? (most statistics confirm that suicidees suffer from depression. Ergo, God is a pernicious bastard for sending mentally ill people to hell)
5)
If its a "dream" like scientist say it is, then why are all the stories so similar? why are the people who actually had it happen to them so convinced that it wasn't a dream? why are people seeing things in different room, and hearing themselves being pronounced dead?

Too many to list. Heres a few:
- if the scientists asked the patients soon after the "experience" (as you said) it is possible that the memory could have been created by the types of questions being asked (i.e. the patient may have suddenly "remembered" being in heaven after the scientist asked if he had been in heaven. Classical stereotypes of heaven may then have shaped the memory into a cogent and lucid recollection).
-There dreams might have been induced by a prevailing attitude towards death.
-The book might be a spurious fabrications intended to promote religiosity (open to refutation from the above questions)
-They may well have experienced heaven. Whats your point? (we are discussing brain-death not near death)

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Would that reasonable explanation include the possibility of life after death?

DF

Its a possibility but hardly reasonable.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What's the book title Fly?

I think 'dream' isn't the word I'd use. Hallucination might be a better one, caused, perhaps, by oxygen starvation of the brain. Why all so similar? Why do we all breathe in deeply and sharply when someone throws a bucket of freezing water on us? Why do we go out drinking on a nice day and have a greta nice, go out afte ...[text shortened]... nd physological cues and reasons for this (since brain function is dependant on chemistry).

Actually I was referring to a couple books, but mostly a book called "Beyond Deaths Door", you can get it from Amazon. you know what, I would like to hear what you (a sceptic, and a scientist) think about it, In fact I'll even buy the book for you if you read it, (with an open mind of course) and tell me what you think of it, and answer some of my questions "scientifically". Let me know if your interested.

you say its Hallucinations, but I really doubt it could be.


From http://www.near-death.com/

People have NDEs while brain dead
People see verified events while out-of-body
People born blind can see during a NDE
Children have NDEs similar to adults
People are dramatically changed by NDEs
Common elements are found in NDEs
Scientific discoveries are brought back
People who have NDEs are convinced
Groups of people can share a single NDE
Some people have been dead for several days
Some people correctly foresee the future
NDEs have been reported since ancient times
NDEs have been validated in scientific studies
Major world religions support NDE concepts
Studies validate out-of-body experiences
Quantum physics supports NDE concepts
Analytical psychology was founded on a NDE
Hypnotic regression validates NDE concepts
Dream research supports survival after death
After-death communications have been reported
Synchronicity provides afterlife connections
Hypnosis can induce after-death visions
Deathbed visions support survival after death
Out-of-body experiences have been induced
Scientific evidence of reincarnation exists
Hallucinogens produce out-of-body states
Credible angel visitations have been reported
Apparitions of the deceased have been seen
Scientific evidence of astrology exists
Psychic mediums have contacted the dead
Remote viewing is a verifiable reality
Some people retain pre-birth memories
The voices of the dead have been recorded
Scientific evidence of the paranormal exists
Remarkable similarities exist between NDEs
Sacred geometry supports NDE research
Scientific evidence exists that prayer works

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Would that reasonable explanation include the possibility of life after death?

DF

It is a possibility, although more research would require to be done before it could be made into a serious contender. At the moment, it ranks scientifically no higher than an idea or concept (the very lowest level).

Originally posted by flyUnity
Actually I was referring to a couple books, but mostly a book called "Beyond Deaths Door", you can get it from Amazon. you know what, I would like to hear what you (a sceptic, and a scientist) think about it, In fact I'll even buy the book for you if you read it, (with an open mind of course) and tell me what you think of it, and answer some of my questio n NDEs
Sacred geometry supports NDE research
Scientific evidence exists that prayer works

Replace NDE with "alien abduction" or "extraterristrial encounter" and the sentances remain plausible.

Also what evidence is there that prayer works (how does it work, what is its function?) and the paranormal exists (how did they come up with that?)? That atsrology "exists" (what do this mean?), that scienitfic mediums have contacted the dead etc, etc,?

[EDIT] Hypnosis 🙄