Agenda

Originally posted by JS357
I agree arguing legality is missing the point. But Imo a lot of people who argue morality actually just find it yucky.

Well, probably. But I think morality trumps personal feelings. Also, a moral code must be objective and not one's personal opinion. If there is no objective moral code then anything goes. There would be no point in arguing the case pro or con.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Do you think that all people are heterosexual but some choose to act out homosexual acts?

Not sure what you mean.

That's kind of a blanket question. I think all people have the ability to make a choice. Some are forced to choose against their will. Others choose without knowledge while some choose knowing the choice is wrong.

Originally posted by stellspalfie

can you understand why people would want legitimacy through legal equality?

Yes. I think I can see why some would want to do as much as possible to get the law to stand behind them.

i mean you dont have to agree with what they do to understand why people would push for these rights.

I would like to look at Mr. Slick's article again. He was mentioning something being "equal" rights to "special rights."

You see just because I have the right to do something does not mean it is right to do it. Some of us, if we want a just society, need to realize that everything we have "the right" to do is not right because of this.

It is not an easy societal issue to solve.

does the change in law regarding homosexual marriage effect your relationship with god?

No, it does not. It may effect other matters of my life.

in what meaningful way does it effect those that disagree with it?

Look at Frank Turek's short testimony and tell me if you think it was fair for him to lose employment because of a traditional viewpoint on marriage.

Its not long. What would be your comment about his particular experience ?

Marriage Anti-Defamation Alliance

YouTube

Originally posted by josephw
Not sure what you mean.

That's kind of a blanket question. I think all people have the ability to make a choice. Some are forced to choose against their will. Others choose without knowledge while some choose knowing the choice is wrong.

It's a very simple question and the fact that you would pretend otherwise speaks volumes.

When we reach puberty, everyone begins to change. For most of us we begin to feel an attraction to the opposite sex that wasn't there before.

Do you think that all people feel that attraction to the opposite sex and that some people - regardless of feeling that attraction - choose to start having relationships with people of their own sex?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
It's a very simple question and the fact that you would pretend otherwise speaks volumes.

When we reach puberty, everyone begins to change. For most of us we begin to feel an attraction to the opposite sex that wasn't there before.

Do you think that all people feel that attraction [b]to the opposite sex and that some people - regardless of feeling that attraction - choose to start having relationships with people of their own sex?[/b]

Don't accuse me of pretending. That's akin to lying. I'm doing the best as I can. Accept it.

I don't need a lesson in human development.

I think you're asking the question too broadly. There are far too many factors in play to make a generalization. My contention is simple. A moral code from an objective source as a guide for human development and sexual conduct. Behaviors beyond that code are morally wrong.

We're not animals without the ability to choose right from wrong.

Originally posted by Great King Rat

When we reach puberty, everyone begins to change. For most of us we begin to feel an attraction to the opposite sex that wasn't there before.

I am not a psychologist. But I think around this time you can also have something like a mild emotional infatuation with someone of your own sex.

If this is not grown out of but becomes a kind of arrested development, I think one can develop a homosexual desire.

Come on guys. I think if at least some of you think back to pre-teen or near teen age perhaps an actor, an athlete maybe, a class mate, or some other boy held some kind of emotional fascination for you?

I think with girls its the same. My opinion is that adult homosexuality often represents an arrested development from youth.

Also, people are just left unfulfilled and do not know what the problem is. They had a girl friend. The had a boy friend. They been there and done that and still feel like they are missing out.

So, they explore the possibility that what they really need is a homosexual relationship. I think it is significant that in the US after the sexual anarchy of the 1960s homosexuality rose to fill the void left by many veterans of "free love".

I don't mean in all cases. I think when some people are left unsatisfied to a deep level they reason that maybe what is needed is a same sex romance.

Originally posted by josephw
Don't accuse me of pretending. That's akin to lying. I'm doing the best as I can. Accept it.

I don't need a lesson in human development.

I think you're asking the question too broadly. There are far too many factors in play to make a generalization. My contention is simple. A moral code from an objective source as a guide for human development and sexu ...[text shortened]... hat code are morally wrong.

We're not animals without the ability to choose right from wrong.

Well, since you insist on dodging the question, let me rephrase - because I know once a religious fundamentalist has his mind set on not considering an alternative to what he believes to be true, he will continue to be that way regardless.

Do you think we can choose to being attracted to someone?

Originally posted by sonship

When we reach puberty, everyone begins to change. For most of us we begin to feel an attraction to the opposite sex that wasn't there before.

I am not a psychologist. But I think around this time you can also have something like a mild emotional infatuation with someone of your own sex.

If this is not grown out of but becomes a kin ...[text shortened]... re left unsatisfied to a deep level they reason that maybe what is needed is a same sex romance.

"Grown out of?" Please clarify.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Well, since you insist on dodging the question, let me rephrase - because I know once a religious fundamentalist has his mind set on not considering an alternative to what he believes to be true, he will continue to be that way regardless.

Do you think we can choose to being attracted to someone?

This isn't a debate on the psychology of human behavior.

I'm not dodging. You're confusing the issue. We can choose to follow a moral code of conduct or not. It's that simple.

I might ask this question though. Can a person become unable to choose?

I believe the answer is yes.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
"Grown out of?" Please clarify.

It is my opinion that on the road to adulthood there are stages where the attitudes of pre-puberty and pre-adolescents, and probably adolescents are passed through temporarily. They are grown out of or developed out of, and into other stages.

In my opinion along that developmental progress, same sex attraction of some type, plays some part.

Thoughts and feelings that arise between the ages of, let's say, 10 - 15, should be developed from by latter ages.

Originally posted by josephw
This isn't a debate on the psychology of human behavior.

I'm not dodging. You're confusing the issue. We can choose to follow a moral code of conduct or not. It's that simple.

I might ask this question though. Can a person become unable to choose?

I believe the answer is yes.

This is most definitely about the psychology of human behaviour.

The issue is only confusing to people like you, who want to morally disprove of homosexuality but can't be bothered to think about it any futher than the bare minimum.

Do you think we can choose to being attracted to someone?

Originally posted by sonship
It is my opinion that on the road to adulthood there are stages where the attitudes of pre-puberty and pre-adolescents, and probably adolescents are passed through temporarily. They are grown out of or developed out of, and into other stages.

In my opinion along that developmental progress, same sex attraction of some type, plays some part.

Though ...[text shortened]... ngs that arise between the ages of, let's say, 10 - 15, should be developed from by latter ages.

Please explain how a 13 year old boy feeling attracted to another boy grows out of being attracted to boys and into girls.

Originally posted by josephw
My contention against homosexuality is based in its morality and not on its legality. Homosexuality can be made legitimate legally, but that won't make it morally legitimate.

How can any practice between consenting adults which does not affect anyone else be deemed immoral? It's madness.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
This is most definitely about the psychology of human behaviour.

The issue is only confusing to people like you, who want to morally disprove of homosexuality but can't be bothered to think about it any futher than the bare minimum.

Do you think we can choose to being attracted to someone?

"This is most definitely about the psychology of human behaviour."

No, it's about the morality of human behavior. That's what I've been posting about all day in this thread. You are trying to override the morality of the issue with a discussion about the scientific observation of human behavior.

"The issue is only confusing to people like you, who want to morally disprove of homosexuality but can't be bothered to think about it any futher than the bare minimum."

I'm not confused at all. Excuse me, but this issue has been around for eons. I've thought about it as much as the next guy. Been all through it forever. So don't be such a know-it-all about homosexuality.

"Do you think we can choose to being attracted to someone?"

That's a good question. To bad you're using it as bait. You should be honest and ask whether one can choose to be, or not to be, attracted to a member of the same sex.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Please explain how a 13 year old boy feeling attracted to another boy grows out of being attracted to boys and into girls.

How? I think the attraction for the opposite sex just simply gets stronger and stronger.

Beyond this simple layman's explanation seek the professional writings.
If you deny this matter, go ahead and say you don't think it is true.

It must be something like the uncontrolled division of body cells can become a cancer. There are legitimate phases of human psychology that if not kept in some kind of balance and supervision, can grow out of control.

Cancer cells are cells which just will not be regulated and grow until they make the body sick or cause its death.

In the realm of the mind there must be a parallel. That is a legitimate phase of thinking and feeling, if not brought under balance and control, can cause some psychological sickness.

Yesterday scientists said Pluto was a planet.
Then scientists began to say that Pluto was not a planet.
Some, I heard, lately want to re-classify Pluto as a planet once again.

Yester-year homosexuality was classified as a mental illness.
Experts then began to move it OUT of the classification of a mental illness.
Maybe they were wrong. Maybe some will yet again change their minds.

Maybe it should not have been re-classified as not a mental illness in the first place. Maybe Pluto should have not been re-classified. It is what it is.

That's the secular world. To the covetousness is a sin in the revelation of God to man. So is stealing, fornication and idolatry sins. And homosexuality is a sin whether one feels he was born that way or not.

One can say they were born to bash gays. But bashing gays should be a crime regardless of whether you think you were born to physically harm gays or decided after you were born to do so.

Will you accept an excuse from someone, who kicks or throws rocks at a person because they are homosexual - that the rock thrower was just doing what he knows he was BORN to do?