1. Standard membersonship
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    19 Jan '13 17:571 edit
    This thread is started in reply this comment of poster Caissad4:

    Well the first absurdity is the great biblical hero Samson.
    If you read the story you find a man who murders 28 people in cold blood to get their coats to pay off a bet. Clearly every great religion needs a mass murderer to hold up as a hero. Shocking to me is that Christianity has not repudiated these murderous acts or even lowered him from "hero" status.


    To follow along please read the story of Samson which can be found in the book of Judges in 13:1 - 16:31.
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    19 Jan '13 18:20
    Originally posted by sonship
    This thread is started in reply this comment of poster Caissad4:

    [quote] Well the first absurdity is the great biblical hero Samson.
    If you read the story you find a man who murders 28 people in cold blood to get their coats to pay off a bet. Clearly every great religion needs a mass murderer to hold up as a hero. Shocking to me is that Christianity h ...[text shortened]... ease read the story of Samson which can be found in the book of [b]Judges
    in 13:1 - 16:31.[/b]
    Obviously C4 hasn't a clue. Samson murdered 30 people in order to pay off the bet. C4 short-changed Samson by 2 making Samson appear to be less of a mass murderer than he was.
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    19 Jan '13 18:312 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Obviously C4 hasn't a clue. Samson murdered 30 people in order to pay off the bet. C4 short-changed Samson by 2 making Samson appear to be less of a mass murderer than he was.
    While you're considering body count - Samson also slew 1,000 Philistine men with the jawbone of an ass (15:15) . (Bruce Lee had nothing on this guy.)

    Then at the end of his life through his suicide / revenge, it says that he killed a number of Philistines surpassing all the ones he killed during his lifetime (16:30).

    Okay. We've established that Samson killed a lot of Philistines.
    That much is certain.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    19 Jan '13 18:42
    Those Philistines were enemies of Israel so that is why Samson killed them. It had nothing to do with murder. Don't forget that Samson was a judge and he passed judgment on those Philistines.
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    19 Jan '13 18:57
    If you read the story you find a man who murders 28 people in cold blood to get their coats to pay off a bet.



    Was the killing of these men in cold blood ? It is questionable to me. I think we could think of this as warfare between Israel and their oppressors of 40 years, the Philistines.

    The Hebrews are mad with Samson for picking a fight and upsetting their emperialistic conquerors -

    "Do you not know that the Philistines rule over us ?" (15:11)

    "Now at that time the Philistines ruled over Israel." (14:4)

    Concerning Samson, Judges says - " the boy Samson will be a Nazarite to God from the womb; and he will begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines." (13:5)

    The Spirit of God came upon Samson in his various fights against the Philistines, ie (14:14; 14:19) . We can attribute the killings of the Philistines, the oppressors of Israel, to God.

    Indeed the first recorded fight between Samson and the unfortunate Philistines whom he trounced was of God's providence -

    " ... for He [Jehovah] was looking for an opportunity against the Philistines. Now at that time the Philistines ruled over Israel." (14:4)

    After some time I will comment on the question "How much of a Hero is Samson to be considered?"

    I will attempt to show that the Bible presents Samson, like it presents many other patriarchs and heroes of faith, in somewhat of a mixed light. The heroism of David has its limits. He is not to be considered a hero in that he stole a man's wife and arranged to have him murdered in battle to cover up his sin.

    So with Samson. To a degree Samson is a hero of faith. But not in every sense should the Christian consider him so. All of the OT positive figures were shadows, symbols, types of the perfect Son of God to come.

    Most all of the OT heros have something recorded which is not to be exemplified.

    Samson is a mighty man of God who is not so mighty in some respects. He is self willed, easily a skirt chaser, overcome by scheming opposite sex, given to pranks, jokes, and not serious about his consecration.

    I conceded Samson's killings where God's warfare to liberate Israel from the oppressive enemies the Philistines. The heroism of Samson has its limits and lessons for the Christian.

    Cont. latter.
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    19 Jan '13 19:204 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    If you read the story you find a man who murders 28 people in cold blood to get their coats to pay off a bet.



    Was the killing of these men in cold blood ? It is questionable to me. I think we could think of this as warfare between Israel and their oppressors of 40 years, the Philistines.

    The Hebrews are mad with Samson for pick heroism of Samson has its limits and lessons for the Christian.

    Cont. latter.
    Was the killing of these men in cold blood ? It is questionable to me. I think we could think of this as warfare between Israel and their oppressors of 40 years, the Philistines.

    Samson killed those 30 men in a fit of rage in order to steal their clothes to pay off a bet. And yet you think it "questionable" that it was in cold blood?

    C'mon Jaywill, seriously? I know you're quite ready to dispense with reason in order to support your preconceived notions about the Bible, but c'mon.
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    19 Jan '13 21:132 edits
    Samson killed those 30 men in a fit of rage in order to steal their clothes to pay off a bet. And yet you think it "questionable" that it was in cold blood?


    Samson was one of the savior judges in the cycle of such national deliverancess of Israel. Samson was the seventh in the cycle. God used him to restore Israel's proper standing in the good land of Canaan where they were suppose to be the theocratic capital on earth.

    Samson had his weaknesses. His subjectivity and indivudualism hampered his usefulness for his ordained mission. Notice that we do not see Samson mustering up a proper army as say Gideon did.

    Samson is rather a loner and mixes into the job too much of his personal matters and agendas. His sense of accomplishing God's mission is tainted by his subjectivity and self serving interests.

    I bring your attention to the important summary to the book of Judges -

    "In those days there was no king in Israel; each man did what was right in his own eyes." (Judges 21:25)

    This is the closing verse in the whole book of Judges. People tended to do what seemed right in their own eyes. There was a shortage of proper consultation to God for His way and His methods. This somewhat sad summary also repeated throughout the book (17:6; 18:1; 19:1)

    There are serious spiritual lessons to learn from the life of Samson. We all know that Samson was probably the physically strongest man that ever lived. Yet he lacked self control. Yet women could easily lead him down the wrong path. Strong yet weak in character. Samson is a treasure trove of warning to the one who wants to serve God.

    Samson is tainted. Samson is imperfect. Samson comes short of the glory of the Son of God as a savior.

    I will only be very brief here. The end of Samson's life is particularly instructive. He has lost his power from God. He has lost his sight. Yet finally his consecration and power is returned to him. In willingly dying he does more to deliver Israel than in all of his life.

    Dying to self interest is greater in spiritual warfare than external power, even miraculous power. Christ is the true Samson. Christ is the one who by giving up Himself on Calvary slew the enemies of God. His cross vanquished the Satanic evils more than anything else.

    Samson is the mighty man of God who in the end did more unto God by giving up his life in self sacrifice. He is indeed a hero of the faith. But he is also an instructive corner study in what a servant of God should not fall into.


    C'mon Jaywill, seriously? I know you're quite ready to dispense with reason in order to support your preconceived notions about the Bible, but c'mon.


    Samson's service is tainted with personal weakness and personal interest.
    Don't c'mon jaywill me. Everything in the Bible practically has to be examined in relation to its central figure - Jesus Christ. Then you get the keys of understanding and wisdom.
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    19 Jan '13 21:202 edits
    Questions you want to ask about Samson:

    1.) Why did he let women trip him up so easily ?

    2.) Why didn't he lead the Hebrews as a military general ?

    3.) Why was he so individualistic, a loner ?

    4.) Was sexual lust a downfall to this servant of God ?

    5.) Why did he not value with greater preciousness his gift from God ?

    6.) Rather than be more of a national leader why was his personal vindettas more of a priority to him ?

    7.) Why did he find it easier to work with animals (foxes) than to organize a well led army like other judges ?
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    19 Jan '13 21:21
    Originally posted by sonship
    Samson killed those 30 men in a fit of rage in order to steal their clothes to pay off a bet. And yet you think it "questionable" that it was in cold blood?


    Samson was one of the savior judges in the cycle of such national deliverancess of Israel. Samson was the seventh in the cycle. God used him to restore Israel's proper standing in ...[text shortened]... s central figure - Jesus Christ. Then you get the keys of understanding and wisdom.
    if martin luther king would have killed 30 men to pay off a debt, we wouldn't "let it slide".


    bear in mind samson had unbelievable strength, given to him by god. and he killed 30 random people, and it seems not philistine soldiers, to mug them. this would be similar to superman murdering people. would we let it slide because he is superman? or hold him to even greater accountability. there is a reason why trained martial artists get harsher punishments if they commit murder.
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    19 Jan '13 21:384 edits
    if martin luther king would have killed 30 men to pay off a debt, we wouldn't "let it slide".


    This is a leap. I think you may be comparing apples with turnips.
    Probably you can make your point without complicating it by throwing in MLK.

    But, I am not letting anything slide. I have been candid about Samson's errors and weaknesses.

    My opinion is that his defeating the enemies of Israel was ordained. The mixing up of his personal interests in a kind of selective way reveals a weakness.

    Have I been letting these defects in Samson "slide"? I don't think I am excusing him.


    bear in mind samson had unbelievable strength, given to him by god. and he killed 30 random people, and it seems not philistine soldiers, to mug them. this would be similar to superman murdering people. would we let it slide because he is superman? or hold him to even greater accountability. there is a reason why trained martial artists get harsher punishments if they commit murder.


    From our perspective it does appear random.

    War has the appearance of randomness. Of course every killed soldier has a biography.

    We do not know the personal biography of the Philistines killed by Samson. Neither do we know the biographies of all the Egyptians drowned in the Red Sea chasing the Hebrews.

    On this level it is not important. On another level it may be important. But on the level of the book of Judges exactly WHO each of these Philistines were is not important.

    If you want to choke on the life story of the 17th and 24th Philistine killed there by Samson, you have that right. To the book of Judges it is only important to note that the oppressors, the Philistines, lost some men to Samson's fighting that day.

    If you want to make a big ethical fuss that the 4th Philistine that Samson killed was a pretty nice guy afterall, you have that right.

    In the bigger picture of the book of Judges I am not getting deep into that.
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    19 Jan '13 21:51
    Some of you folks are arguing like the last time you had a Bible study was in a Sunday School lesson on Samson.

    Maybe you still remember the crayon colored pictures of the strong man.

    Some of the skepticism I am encountering seems like criticisms of a frozen in time elementary school level Sunday School class.

    "Why is Samson such a hero to Christians ??!!"
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    19 Jan '13 22:02
    Originally posted by sonship
    Some of you folks are arguing like the last time you had a Bible study was in a Sunday School lesson on Samson.

    Maybe you still remember the crayon colored pictures of the strong man.

    Some of the skepticism I am encountering seems like criticisms of a frozen in time elementary school level Sunday School class.

    "Why is Samson such a hero to Christians ??!!"
    Maybe they're seducued by the image of his long flowing locks?
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Jan '13 01:52
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    if martin luther king would have killed 30 men to pay off a debt, we wouldn't "let it slide".


    bear in mind samson had unbelievable strength, given to him by god. and he killed 30 random people, and it seems not philistine soldiers, to mug them. this would be similar to superman murdering people. would we let it slide because he is superman? or hold hi ...[text shortened]... there is a reason why trained martial artists get harsher punishments if they commit murder.
    What you fail to understand is that no murder was committed. One can kill without committing murder. numbnuts.
  14. Standard membercaissad4
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    20 Jan '13 02:10
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What you fail to understand is that no murder was committed. One can kill without committing murder. numbnuts.
    What you fail to understand is wandering around killing random people is murder. Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer would probably agree with you though. Suicide bombers would also agree with you. Good company, eh.😛
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Jan '13 02:141 edit
    Originally posted by caissad4
    What you fail to understand is wandering around killing random people is murder. Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer would probably agree with you though. Suicide bombers would also agree with you. Good company, eh.😛
    You are a very narrow minded person. 😏
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