Originally posted by orfeoThat depends on a huge amount of things.
Despite the tone of sarcasm that was apparently said in, it's worth considering the question further. Who is more likely to actually shape the world they live in - someone who is just 'getting on with living', or someone who strongly believes in certain things?
Originally posted by scottishinnzYes, it does. And telerion has already demonstrated that my simplistic post set up a target that was pretty easy to knock down. But a big part of why I responded to your post was because your description of two 'categories' of people was so broad and simplistic.
That depends on a huge amount of things.
Sure, educated people - and educated atheists - do a lot of good or even great things. I'd quibble though with describing them as people who are just 'getting on with living'.
But people who could be described by their opponents as narrow-minded and prejudiced can also achieve an awful lot. Pope John Paul II did a lot to bring about the fall of the Iron Curtain right about the same time he was declaring abortion evil and saying no to women priests.
Originally posted by orfeoAnd I was just responding to your desultory tone about educated atheists broad mindedness. What would you prefer? Broad mindedness but atheist, and the society that this breeds, or narrow mindedness and Christian, and the society that breeds. Of course there are other possibilites there, but your tone was unequivocal.
Yes, it does. And telerion has already demonstrated that my simplistic post set up a target that was pretty easy to knock down. But a big part of why I responded to your post was because your description of two 'categories' of people was so broad and simplistic.
Sure, educated people - and educated atheists - do a lot of good or even great things. I'd qu ...[text shortened]... in right about the same time he was declaring abortion evil and saying no to women priests.
Originally posted by StarrmanYou were talking about atheist and theist and their working towards
None of that makes any sense, could you try again please?
being righteous or good.
My point, Christians have left trying to be good enough, and have
given their righteous up for the righteousness Jesus gives. This
does not stop them/us from attempting to do right or good, but
our own good works do not define our righteousness, Jesus'
gift of His righteousness does. Obeying Christ becomes the guide
with which to walk out our faith.
While an atheist has strickly their own righteousness with which to
stand or fall on, they live only for themselves to do good as they
see fit, their own self righteousness is the measure of all things
for them.
Kelly
Originally posted by lucifershammerI hadnt heard of OSAS before freaky brought it up a few weeks ago, so I definately dont make that assumption. There is however a trend in some Christian denominations to assume that once saved it is not that important how you live your life, or put another way, being saved is more important than good works. This is not a view of all Christians but neither is it OSAS.
That's only true for OSAS Christians.
Why does everyone here (except the non-OSAS Christians) seem to assume that all Christians are OSAS??
I must point out here that in Zambia the Roman Catholic Church is the largest denomination and by far the biggest do gooders.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI agree that there are two lies that go through the Christian faithless.
I hadnt heard of OSAS before freaky brought it up a few weeks ago, so I definately dont make that assumption. There is however a trend in some Christian denominations to assume that once saved it is not that important how you live your life, or put another way, being saved is more important than good works. This is not a view of all Christians but neither ...[text shortened]... Zambia the Roman Catholic Church is the largest denomination and by far the biggest do gooders.
1. Once saved always saved, so you can do whatever you want without
regard to what God asks or demands.
2. You have to earn your way into Heaven by good works on top of
what Christ did, because you need to earn it.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayit's never black and white for us to define this through someone's faith though is it?
I agree that there are two lies that go through the Christian faithless.
1. Once saved always saved, so you can do whatever you want without
regard to what God asks or demands.
2. You have to earn your way into Heaven by good works on top of
what Christ did, because you need to earn it.
Kelly
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJaywe're never perfect and the good we do isn't always about getting into Heaven. only stupid people try to get into Heaven by good deeds, as most Christians are simply trying to live their life acceptable to Him... in their own personal relationship with Jesus. good points you brought up. i would like to give you a rec, but that would be wrong.
I agree that there are two lies that go through the Christian faithless.
1. Once saved always saved, so you can do whatever you want without
regard to what God asks or demands.
2. You have to earn your way into Heaven by good works on top of
what Christ did, because you need to earn it.
Kelly
Originally posted by telerionNow for theists who do not believe in an infinite afterlife...
I've enjoyed all of the responses so far. Very sincere.
Before I respond directly to your question, let me clarify that I'm reading into your post here a bit by assuming you mean "shape the world they live in" to be a positive action. It should be obvious immediately upon a moments reflection that such an action need not be positive at all!
Anot ...[text shortened]... ot necessarily imply that you do not believe in an afterlife, however, most do not.
Interesting and important distinction that we often seem to forget.
I’m pretty sure not all theistic Jews believe in such an afterlife—and in any event, Judaism as a whole does not have a lot to say about it. There are various and contradictory statements in the Talmud about who is or is not eligible for the olam ha’ba (the world to come), but the Talmud presents a collection of arguments rather than a collection of pronouncements, which serve as a jumping off point for further argument...
There are some Jews, particularly among the Hasidim, who believe in the transmigration of the soul (a particular form of reincarnation). Other monistic (as opposed to theistic) Jews hold views closer to Advaita Vedanta: we are like waves that arise out of the ocean of is-ness, and when we die we simply “collapse” back into the ocean, without any personal after-life (as a monist, my view).
Personal salvation is not a fundamental issue in rabbinical Judaism; redemption is not an individual affair, nor strictly a spiritual one, but a matter of repairing the world (tikkun). Some Jews argue that ultimate repair/redemption of the world will be when the messiah comes; some hold that the messiah will not come until we have done the job (at least the major portion); some hold that “messiah” is an archetypal term—i.e., that “there’s a little bit o’ the messiah in all of us;” or, as one rabbi put it: “There is no messiah—and you’re it!”
This “worldly view” of redemption is one of the reasons that Jews do not recognize Jesus as the messiah—because, in those terms, the world seems clearly unredeemed.*
* Except for “Messianic Judaism”—Jews who do think Jesus was the messiah. About them, I know little (other than wiki-info).
[I have become intrigued lately with the question of Judaistic covenant in the context of the monistic stream of Judaism, and how that might relate to tikkun; in fact, how a monistic Jew might understand the whole notion of covenant, especially since in the mythic telling the covenant is with YHVH, the particular “God word” in Torah most subject to a monistic understanding.]
Originally posted by KellyJayI dont know why you used the word faithless. If they are Christian then surely they have faith? There is a popular modified version of No 2. which goes something like this:
I agree that there are two lies that go through the Christian faithless.
1. Once saved always saved, so you can do whatever you want without
regard to what God asks or demands.
2. You have to earn your way into Heaven by good works on top of
what Christ did, because you need to earn it.
Kelly
2b. You have to earn you way into heaven by going to church, saving other people, and praying really hard.