An Unsolvable Mystery in Exodus

I have been debating about the Triune God and the nature of the Trinity with a few people. Sometimes when arguments like these go on a false impression may be given that all mysterious of God's nature are completely understood and can be succinctly explained.

Do not think i have no questions about the mystery of God.

In this thread I will attempt to confess an unsolvable mystery about the God of the Bible. Mind you, we can experience God. We can enjoy God. We can fellowship with God in loving communion and sweet union.

But we can not always comprehend and explain God.
Maybe someone claims he or she can explain these mysteries I will lay out in the book of Exodus.

I cannot. But I surely believe in God.
My interpretations of these passages only can go so far for it is too mysterious for me.

Backround - Exodus 33. Read it. Enjoy it.

Originally posted by sonship
I have been debating about the Triune God and the nature of the Trinity with a few people. Sometimes when arguments like these go on a false impression may be given that all mysterious of God's nature are completely understood and can be succinctly explained.

Do not think i have no questions about the mystery of God.

In this thread I will attempt to ...[text shortened]... o so far for it is too mysterious for me.

Backround - [b]Exodus 33. Read it. Enjoy it.[/b]

What does "attempt to confess and unsolvable mystery" mean?

Originally posted by sonship
I have been debating about the Triune God and the nature of the Trinity with a few people. Sometimes when arguments like these go on a false impression may be given that all mysterious of God's nature are completely understood and can be succinctly explained.

Do not think i have no questions about the mystery of God.

In this thread I will attempt to ...[text shortened]... o so far for it is too mysterious for me.

Backround - [b]Exodus 33. Read it. Enjoy it.[/b]

Is this thread going to be your way of rationalising your incomprehensible obfuscation in your other threads?

Originally posted by divegeester
What does "attempt to confess and unsolvable mystery" mean?

Better put - I will try to show an unsolvable mystery concerning God. That is a mystery that I (if no one else) confesses I can not solve.

Hopefully that is more understandable ?

Originally posted by divegeester
Is this thread going to be your way of rationalising your incomprehensible obfuscation in your other threads?

No.

Neither will it be an admition that I have stopped beating my wife (or some other loaded question you devise).

Are you going highjack this thread with 18 to 20 more repetitions of your master blaster of all "gotcha" questions on the Trinity ?

Originally posted by sonship
I have been debating about the Triune God and the nature of the Trinity with a few people. Sometimes when arguments like these go on a false impression may be given that all mysterious of God's nature are completely understood and can be succinctly explained.

Do not think i have no questions about the mystery of God.

In this thread I will attempt to ...[text shortened]... o so far for it is too mysterious for me.

Backround - [b]Exodus 33. Read it. Enjoy it.[/b]

I've had a revelation about one mystery solved in Exodus.

God told me that to part the Red Sea he used the hot air generated over the years here at RHP. He had to be careful though, he could only use a small percentage of it or risk killing the Hebrews with hurricane type winds.

Originally posted by sonship
Are you going highjack this thread with 18 to 20 more repetitions of your master blaster of all "gotcha" questions on the Trinity ?

Are you going to make this thread about the trinity, your infallible interpretation of scripture and a passive agressive assault on those who disagree with you?

The backround to this chapter is Moses meeting with God for the second span of forty days after the first stay with God. After that first stay God sent Moses down to see that the Isrealites had made a idol of a golden calf instead of worshiping God.

Now God is not wanting to go up with the sinning nation as they continue on to the Good Land.

Verse 2 -

"And I will send an Angel; before you; and I will drive out the Canaanites, the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you in the way, for you are a stiffnecked people.

And when the people heard this evil word, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments." (Exd. 33:2-4)

God says He will not personally go up with the children of Israel into Canaan. Am I right ? Again in the next verse 5 -

" Now Jehovah had said to Moses, Say to the children of Israel, You are a stiffnecked people, if I were to go up in your midst for one moment, I would consume you. Now therefore put off your ornaments from you, and i will decide what to do to you." (v.5)

Before the law of God was delivered the Israelites had broken the first four commandments. Moses, in anger, threw the tablets down and broke them. He disciplined the people. But he also interceded for the people and held God to His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to continue to bring the people into the Good Land.

This is something of the backround to what is to me a real unsolvable problem of whether God went up with the Israelites into Canaan or not.

I am laying some backround to the thread's topic.

I have encountered at least two or more anti-trinitarian, Unitarian outlooks on the nature of God. They are poster checkbaiter and poster divegeester.

They are a curious duo to me.
Checkbaiter says Jesus Christ is not God.
Divegeester on the other hand, I believe, believes that Jesus Christ is God.

In this regard I am in agreement with anti-trinitarian Divegeester more than anti-trinitarian checkbaiter. That is as far as Jesus being God incarnate is concerned.

This is backround to discuss the unsolvable theological issue in Exodus 33.

Notice that Exodus 33:2 the Lord said that He would send His angel before the people. I have no doubt that this Angel is Christ before His incarnation as a man. Christ in many cases is the Angel of Jehovah in the Old Testament.

I state this because of my belief that Christ is God. Before His incarnation and birth in the human womb of a virgin woman - Mary. Christ was the eternal God - God the Son seen a number of times in the Old Testament.

I don't know if divegeester agrees with this. I think he agrees that Christ is God. And if so he must agree that Christ is eternal, uncreated, ever existing from eternity to eternity.

He may part with me when i say Christ is seen before He clothed Himself in creation as a born MAN, as the Angel, the sent One Whom Jehovah God is seen sending to go before the children of Israel.

So, it is a given to me that the angel is Christ in Exodus 33:2. . I can defend it. But for now I will just affirm it. And as long as Christ goes with the people, this means that God goes with them.

The Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah are interchangeably used in Exodus 3

" And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. And when he [Moses] looked, there was the thornbush, burning with fire, but the thornbush was not consumed.

And Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thornbush does not burn up.

And when Jehovah saw that he had tuned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am.

And He said, Do not come near here, Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. "

Don't grow weary of reading the word of God. Here's the important part.

"And He said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God."
(v.6)

God and the Angel of Jehovah are interchangeable here. For "the Angel of Jehovah APPEARED .. " (v.1) . And Moses was afraid to look upon Jehovah God Who was speaking to him - "for he was afraid to look at God".

I go on below to explore the mystery of God's nature in Exodus 33.

Originally posted by sonship
I have encountered at least two or more anti-trinitarian, Unitarian outlooks on the nature of God. They are poster checkbaiter and poster divegeester.

They are a curious duo to me.
Checkbaiter says Jesus Christ is not God.
Divegeester on the other hand, I believe, believes that Jesus Christ is God.

In this regard I am in agreement with anti-tri ...[text shortened]... look at God".

I go on below to explore the mystery of God's nature in Exodus 33.[/b]

Good grief...this is yet another pointless boring trinity thread.

Isn't it?...

Originally posted by divegeester
Good grief...this is yet another pointless boring trinity thread.

Isn't it?...

So then we won't see additional posts from you on this thread ?
Well, ok.

Aren't you bored ? Really, you should go find something else to do.
Bye.

Originally posted by sonship
So then we won't see additional posts from you on this thread ?
Well, ok.

Aren't you bored ? Really, you should go find something else to do.
Bye.

Fair point.

Perhaps this thread is not about sonship and his trinity.

So God says His Angel would go up with the people. But God Himself would not go up it seems to be said.

Yet after some further bargaining by Moses God did say that His PRESENCE would go up with the people.

Moses said to God -

"See, You are saying to me, Bring up this people, but You have not let me know whom You will send with me; and yet You have said, I know you by name, and you have also found favor in My eyes,

And now, I pray, if I have found favor in Your eyes; and consider that this nation is Your people."

The strong implication is that Moses requests that God would go up with the nation. God understands what Moses is talking about and replies.

"My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest."

God will not go up with them but His presence will go up with them.
Isn't this rather mysterious ?

Now listen to Moses reply.

"The Moses further said to the Lord, If your presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. And by what shall it be known then that I have found favor in Your eues, I and Your people ?

Is it not by YOUR GOING WITH US, that we might be distinguished, I and Your people, from all the people which are on the face of the earth ?" (Exo. 33:15,16)

What do we have now? God will not go up with them. God's presence will go up with them. And if God's presence is not with them its is not "Your going with us".

God apparently agrees that His presence is His going with them for He says -

"Even this thing which you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in My eyes, and I know you by name." (v. 17)

We do not have to wait until the baptism instructions of Matthew 28:19 to notice the nature of God is something beyond our limited mentality. Even in the second book of the Bible, Exodus we have a mystery which is hard to solve.

God will not go up with them in their midst..
God's Angel of Jehovah will go with them.
God and the Angel of God are seen as interchangeable.
Though God says He will not go with them His PRESENCE will go with them.
Moses counts His presence going with them as God going with them.
God says "Yes" and even this He will do because Moses has found favor in his sight.

Did God go with them into Canaan in their midst ?
Or did God not go up with them into Canaan in their midst ?

Is His presence Himself ?
How can His presence go with them yet He Himself not go with them ?

Some difficult questions about Exodus 33.

Another problem is related to God’s word to Moses in verse 20 concerning seeing His face. The Lord said, “You cannot see My face, for no man shall see Me and live.” However, verse 11 says, “Jehovah would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his companion.” How can we explain this?

Furthermore, in these verses we see that God’s face is His glory, that His glory is His presence, and that His presence is His face. How are we to understand all this?

As I have indicated, I do not have the solution to these problems. I can only speak according to our limited understanding of what God is. In a sense, we can talk to God face to face. But in another sense, we cannot see God’s face. This is not a contradiction. Rather, it is a matter of degree or extent.

The principle is the same with God’s angel going with the people. For the angel of God to go with the children of Israel meant that to a certain extent God went with them. For God’s glory to go with them meant that God went with them to a further extent. In Exodus 14 we see that the angel of God is one thing and the pillar of cloud is another (v. 19). Both the angel of God and the pillar of cloud were there leading the way. It was possible, however, for the children of Israel to have one without the other. It is better, of course, to have both.

After Moses pitched his tent outside the camp, God’s glory was at the door of the tent, but it was not within the camp. This indicates that God’s presence was at the door of Moses’ tent, not in the camp. However, we should not say that God was not at all in the camp with the children of Israel. This principle applies to us today. We may say that God’s glory is not present in a situation where there is idolatry among Christians. However, we cannot say absolutely that God is not among these Christians. As we have pointed out, this is a matter of degree.

From 32:30—33:23 we learn the serious lesson that we need to know God’s heart and also be a person according to God’s heart. Then we shall have God’s presence as Moses did. Moses had God’s presence to the full extent. But the children of Israel had God’s presence in a very limited way, for they were far from God’s heart. Moses, however, was a person very near to God’s heart, a person according to His heart. This was the reason he could have God’s presence to the full extent. We all need to learn that only a person like Moses can be a companion of God. Only this kind of person can share a common interest with God and be used by God to carry out His enterprise on earth.

From The Life Study of Exodus Message 177, by Witness Lee.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n