1. Maryland
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    18 Mar '10 21:23
    Why should we expect god to do better in the next world than this one?
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    18 Mar '10 23:324 edits
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Why should we expect god to do better in the next world than this one?
    The problem is not on God's side. The problem is on the side of man fallen away from God and having joined an opposition party against God.

    That is the first thing. Secondly, the Bible does speak of "a new heaven and a new earth." But it does not preceed the transformation of the redeemed people of God.

    In other words first He has to change His saved people. Then He brings in the new universe in full.

    When you are born again, part of you is already in that new world. Transfomration of the soul is the rest of you following.

    The new heaven and the new earth in Revelation 21 and 22 is not brought into being until all of the people saved by God have been transformed by His salvation.
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    18 Mar '10 23:401 edit
    If you understand something about the Big Bang you may consider the new universe is this way - the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the initial singularity.

    The resurrection of Jesus is the beginning of the new universe. The full redemption, sanctification, transformation, conformation, resurrection, glorification, transfiguration, and deification of God's saved and redeemed people is akin to the first moments of that exploding singularity. Lastly, the physical universe is changed to become a new heaven and a new earth AFTER all of God's people have been deified.

    When you are born again, one part of your being is already in that new age. You receive the eternal life and as it were, you are partially in that new age already.

    The rest of your being is brought in through Christ's dynamic salvation.
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    18 Mar '10 23:441 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Why should we expect god to do better in the next world than this one?
    We should not expect man to do better apart from God's salvation even if man should migrate to another planet.

    Sinful man can only transport his sinful nature to another planet. He needs God's full salvation.
  5. Maryland
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    19 Mar '10 02:05
    Originally posted by jaywill
    We should not expect man to do better apart from God's salvation even if man should migrate to another planet.

    Sinful man can only transport his sinful nature to another planet. He needs God's full salvation.
    But, if god can make heaven perfect, why could he not have made the earth perfect? To quote Woody Allen, god is an under achiever!
  6. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    19 Mar '10 02:23
    Originally posted by 667joe
    But, if god can make heaven perfect, why could he not have made the earth perfect? To quote Woody Allen, god is an under achiever!
    When god was allegedly designing mankind, he knew already that they would fail. He went ahead and designed them to those specifications anyway. Man's failure was a built in feature. God fully intended for mankind to fail.
  7. Territories Unknown
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    19 Mar '10 03:17
    Originally posted by rwingett
    When god was allegedly designing mankind, he knew already that they would fail. He went ahead and designed them to those specifications anyway. Man's failure was a built in feature. God fully intended for mankind to fail.
    You apparently are not aware of the meaning for the word "intend."
  8. Cape Town
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    19 Mar '10 07:01
    Originally posted by jaywill
    He needs God's full salvation.
    Which God apparently does not give out equally nor in a hurry. Why doesn't he just give it at birth?
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    19 Mar '10 08:27
    Originally posted by 667joe
    But, if god can make heaven perfect, why could he not have made the earth perfect? To quote Woody Allen, god is an under achiever!
    god did make the earth perfect. he made human not so perfect.


    even the imperfection of humans can be argued: we are sentient beings, capable of reason, growth and free will. (growth might come from free will).

    so in short, god did good, it is the humans that fuked it up.
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    19 Mar '10 08:36
    Originally posted by rwingett
    When god was allegedly designing mankind, he knew already that they would fail. He went ahead and designed them to those specifications anyway. Man's failure was a built in feature. God fully intended for mankind to fail.
    you seem to be confused on god's intent, the meaning of creating anything, failure as a race, free will , god omniscience, and a host of other things


    if you would know that your 5th child will grow up to be a murderer but your 6th son would cure cancer, would you stop at the 4th child? or not have children at all? or would you let it happen and then try to guide son number 5 away from the path of evil because, you know, the future is not yet set?


    do you believe god omniscience, a fixed unchangeable future and free will can coexist? if there is only one future, is there such a thing as free will? if there isn't then god may have knowledge of all the possible futures, but still it would be man's task to choose one.

    mankind did some horrible things. but it did some good things as well. for that matter, some men did evil and some men did good. you don't call planet earth uninhabitable just because of the sahara desert or antarctica.

    so no, god did not know mankind would fail and mankind did not fail. he created something that would have a free will independent of his own and then he sometimes tried to guide us into making the right choices. it was a gift, not a design flaw.
  11. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    19 Mar '10 10:34
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    you seem to be confused on god's intent, the meaning of creating anything, failure as a race, free will , god omniscience, and a host of other things


    if you would know that your 5th child will grow up to be a murderer but your 6th son would cure cancer, would you stop at the 4th child? or not have children at all? or would you let it happen and then tr ...[text shortened]... sometimes tried to guide us into making the right choices. it was a gift, not a design flaw.
    God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence are wholly incompatible with 'free will.' He created the world in a certain way, knowing in advance every choice that every man would ever make. He could have altered those starting conditions to produce different results, but did not. We can only conclude that every single thing that happens is exactly what god wanted all along.

    Your example of children is just plain stupid. I don't design my children. If I knew my 5th child would grow up to be a murderer, I would (A)design him differently, (B)alter the conditions of his upbringing to produce different results, (C)not have him in the first place, or (D)abort him. To know that he would grow up to be a murderer and allow things to proceed unaltered is to be an accomplice to the crime. Indeed, it is to be the originator of the crime.
  12. Cape Town
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    19 Mar '10 11:27
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    if there isn't then god may have knowledge of all the possible futures.
    Knowing all possible futures is as good as knowing nothing as you do not know which future will become real. For example I know all possible winning numbers in the lottery.
    Though one can of course change the set of numbers in the lottery so as to eliminate all undesirable numbers.
    So a God that knows all possible futures, must either take responsibility for them, or be incapable of designing a universe in which the only possible futures are desirable.

    he created something that would have a free will independent of his own and then he sometimes tried to guide us into making the right choices. it was a gift, not a design flaw.
    Yet it begs the question as to why he doesn't do a bit more guiding. It also leaves out the well known issue suffering due to practically unavoidable causes (though some like to blame those all on Adam).
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    19 Mar '10 11:34
    Originally posted by rwingett
    God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence are wholly incompatible with 'free will.' He created the world in a certain way, knowing in advance every choice that every man would ever make. He could have altered those starting conditions to produce different results, but did not. We can only conclude that every single thing that happens is exactly what god wan ...[text shortened]... ltered is to be an accomplice to the crime. Indeed, it is to be the originator of the crime.
    you fail to grasp the concept of design

    (A) is stupid. god didn't design us to be murderers, he designed us to have free will. some will choose to murder to get what they want and some will choose a more socially accepted method.
    that means that in 1 billion humans or just 10, some will make the wrong choices and some will make the right choices. just because hitler happened that doesn't mean beethoven or ghandi should have been obliterated too.


    my "plain stupid" example of children goes to show that if you eliminate the 5th child, that means the 6th child gets eliminated too. is that what you propose? (B) some become murderers even with decent upbringing. why is it the parents fault the child grows up to be a murderer? (C) and (D) are equivalent and equally stupid. if the 5th child doesn't get born, how can the 6th get born? does he? should he? should have all humanity not be created just to avoid the cain incident?


    for all your bitchin about god, you realize that you need each and every preposterous passage in the bible, quran or some other holy book to justify your view that if god existed, he would be a bastard. it is kind of odd to not believe in god and to use religion to prove god is evil.

    if free will is real (and i choose to believe it is) god cannot know beforehand what we will choose. he either has omniscience of all the possible outcomes we can take or he doesn't know the future because it is not fixed yet. but even if he did know beforehand what would happen, why should he intervene? how often should he intervene? where to draw the line?

    what use is a life as a prop in a puppet show, where each line is known beforehand?
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    19 Mar '10 11:44
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Knowing all possible futures is as good as knowing nothing as you do not know which future will become real. For example I know all possible winning numbers in the lottery.
    Though one can of course change the set of numbers in the lottery so as to eliminate all undesirable numbers.
    So a God that knows all possible futures, must either take responsibilit ...[text shortened]... suffering due to practically unavoidable causes (though some like to blame those all on Adam).
    why must god take responsibility for them? would you take responsibility for the actions of your children? sure, you are not god you will say, you have no idea how your children would act. but if you restrict your children to a 2 by 2 room to which only you have the key, surely anything bad they could do would be avoided.

    just because god can smite any would be murderer down, why should he? it would be like playing wow and having an admin giving you all the armours and weapons you want, maximum level and the ability to instantly kill anything with 1 spell. what is there left for you to play?

    Knowing all possible futures
    it makes more sense and allows for free will better than "god knows the only future possible". it is also better than your lottery example. with his omniscience, god may know what futures are rendered impossible by any choice we make, what future hangs on what choice so if a dood might invent a machine to collapse the whole universe into a point singularity, he might know what to do to avoid it. and so on. it is slightly better than nothing.
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    19 Mar '10 11:46
    Originally posted by 667joe
    But, if god can make heaven perfect, why could he not have made the earth perfect? To quote Woody Allen, god is an under achiever!
    Is your concept of a "perfect heaven" one in which no creature of free will could not choose to revolt against God ? If that is your idea of a "perfect heaven" I am not sure that God created a "perfect heaven" in that regard.

    There are a number of philosophical questions which are hard for me to answer. That is "why" this was done this way or "why" something else was done another way. I can and do speculate on the whys.

    But more important, I think, is that history is moving in the direction of this ideal creation that we all long for. We have God's fulfilled promises about many things, ie. the very birth of Christ, which was prophesied centries before He came and fulfilled the promise.

    This gives us confidence that God's promise that His eternal plan is moving the creation and man towards that new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    We may muse philisophically on "Why is it not that way now?" But it is important to realize that God's salvation is moving His people and His creation to that climax.

    We may well muse "Well, why was it not always that way?" A fully satisfactory answer to that I may not be able to give you. I have my thoughts on it. But I would rather encourage you that for certain, God's eternal purpose is headed in that direction and will arrive at that culmination.

    In the mean time He is giving you time in which to be reconciled to God through the redemption of Christ. And He is giving you time to be sanctified in the Holy Spirit - saturated with His divine nature, conformed to the image of His Son, and built up in His living temple.

    We and God are incompatible. And He doesn't change. So He must change us. And we know that He is able to cause all things that have happened to work out for the good of those who receive His salvation.

    "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

    Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

    And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30)
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