Apostasy & Recovery in Rev. 2,3

I believe robbie and other Jehovah's Witnesses would argue that Jehovah God comes first and then the Lord Jesus Christ. What do you say to them?

"Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5)

Is the Lord Jesus Christ only to be be the first love of the gentiles? Where does Israel and the Jews that deny Christ fit in to this?

My replies will be purposely steered in the direction of the topic and the OP. This may sound rather forced. But it is the only way the thread does not drift into some other general discussion.

The reply you receive from me will be hard turned in the direction of my OP.

The words of Christ to His own church in these seven letters is often quite sharp. But His words to the unbelieving Jews is quite harsh. He calls the unbelieving Jews the synogogue of Satan.

"Behold, I will make those of the synogogue of Satan, those who call themselves Jews and are not, but lie - behold, I will cause them to come and fall prostrate before your feet and to know that I have loved you." (3:9)

1.) He doesn't say that the Christian will gather up Jews to do this. He says that He will cause it to happen. There's a big difference.

2.) The implication is that the TRUE Jews would accept Christ as the Messiah. Otherwise why would He say " ... those who call themselves Jews and are not, but lie - "?

3.) On a personal note, I would not have written this passage. But I didn't do the writing. This is the inspired word of God through John and out of the mouth of Jesus Christ.

4.) The are enough harsh words to go around. Christ here speaks harshly to the Jews who oppose the Christian gospel. However, there is no shortage of strong words said concerning the Christian church. In other of the seven letters this can be seen.

Christ here is God Almighty incarnated and become the speaking seven Spirits of God, the Holy Spirit, the life giving Spirirt. And the opposing Jews who oppose the new covenant, He calls the synogogue of Satan, and are lying to say they are true Jews.

Some interpreters interpret the word about the synogogue of Satan slightly differently. They say that Christians trying to be law keepers in the Mosaic fashion are the ones who lie and call themselves Jews but are not. It is a good point. And that interpretation may be better than what I suggest.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] I believe robbie and other Jehovah's Witnesses would argue that Jehovah God comes first and then the Lord Jesus Christ. What do you say to them?

"Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5)

Is the Lord Jesus Chr ...[text shortened]... re not. It is a good point. And that interpretation may be better than what I suggest.

These could be gentile converts to Judism, who are now appearing in the synagogue of Satan and calling themselves Jews.

http://www.bibleword.org/synag.html

Originally posted by jaywill
.. So the brothers and sisters in Christ should often tell Christ that they simply love Him. ...

Loving Christ has nothing to do with how often you tell Christ that you love him. You love Christ by demonstrating your love through your good works. So important is this concept that it is repeated several times :

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Matt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Are you preaching the doctrine of the hypocrites again?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Loving Christ has nothing to do with how often you tell Christ that you love him. You love Christ by demonstrating your love through your good works. So important is is concept that it is repeated several times :

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but hav ...[text shortened]... but their heart is far from me.

Are you preaching the doctrine of the hypocrites again?

Rajk999, you are going to try to turn a peaceful thread into a fight ?

Loving Christ has nothing to do with how often you tell Christ that you love him.

Sure telling the Lord Jesus that we love Him is involved. That is why Jesus ASKED Peter three times IF ... He loved Him.

If you mean JUST telling Him that we love Him, is inadequate, that might have some relevance. But of course it should be obvious because Jesus followed each confession of Peter's love with a charge to take care of Christ's sheep.

You love Christ by demonstrating your love through your good works. So important is is concept that it is repeated several times :

In the letter to the Ephesian church it is clear that they had commendable works. Yet STILL the Lord told them that they had LEFT thier first love. Read the letter again.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

This is very good passage. I will tend to utilize more the passages related to to the OP.

Notice - "I know your WORKS and your labor and your endurance and that you cannot bear evil men; and you have tried those who call themselves apostles and are not, and have found them to be false; And you have endurance and have borne all things because of My name and have not grown weary. BUT ... I have one thing against you, that you have LEFT your first love." (my emphasis, Rev. 2:2-4)

We cannot say they had no good works.
The Lord recognized their labor, discernment, distaste for evil men whom they could not bear, endurance in trial and persecution. All these commendable aspects they had. They may even had much "speaking" of praise and love of the Lord.

Regardless, Christ, the One with eyes as a flame of fire, had something against them. He looked into the hearts and said that they had left their first love.

So it is quite evident that Christians can be very busy, smart, able to detect false apostles, and enduring in persecution, yet have left the love which puts Christ above all things.

Matt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

That's another good passage. But it does not nullify or make meaningless the exhortation to the "good works doing" church in Ephesus, that they had left thier first love.

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Same as above comment.

Are you preaching the doctrine of the hypocrites again?

Me? I am just actually quoting what the Lord Jesus taught in Revelation 2:1-7.

The busy "good doing" church was warned by Christ that they had left the first love. And they were told to repent and to do the first works over.

The warning to the church is that if they do not repent He will remove their lampstand. This may not sound like a big deal to some people. But the sheer joy of being a part of the testimony of Jesus is too precious to lose. And this should concern them. That is that Christ would remove them from being a golden lampstand testifying of the Triune God to a dark world -

"Remember therefore where you have fallen from and repent and do the first works, but if not, I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent." (v.5)

This is sobering. The Christ lovers at Ephesus should be vigilant that thier testifying function remain. For in this way they participate in the eternal purpose of God to manifest God united with man - a pure golden lampstand.

The warning to remove the lampstand has to do with the lovers of Christ failing to be the proper testimony of Jesus. Since to be associated with with Christ in this was is such a joy and fulfillment of human life, this removal warning should be a sober concern to them.

Now, one thing Jesus liked about them was that they hated the works of the Nicolaitans -

"But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." (v.6)

Nico - means to conquer or to overcome.
laitans or "laity" concerns "common people".

There are differences of opinion about what this means - the works of the Nicolaitans. Some people think it refers to some heretic actually called Nicolas. History doesn't say much about such a person.

I am of the interpretive opinion that the Nicolaitans refers to the behavior of some people who conquer the common people. That is they, by their natural talent and strength, become leaders and suppress the common believers in the church. This is the beginning of the clergy / laity custom of some believers being elevated over others improperly.

More will be said on this in the future. But Jesus wants us to love what He loves. And Jesus wants us to hate what He hates. And He hated the works of the Nicolaitans because it renders the church into a clergy / laity situation.

Then some believers become the "professional" spiritual people on behalf of others. When 100 people meet as a church and someone is asked to pray, and everyone bows out because, well, that is the "Pastor's" job - That is the works of the Nicolaitans.

It is stressful to the one who has been placed on top.
And it renders the others passive and excusing themselves from having to be spiritual.

The works of the Nicolaitans is the direct contrast to the priesthood of the believer. At this stage it is only the works of the Nicolaitans. Latter in another church, in another stage, it becomes the TEACHING of the Nicolaitans. That means the behavior became institutionalized.

This is not a call to anarchy. Neither is it a call that there be no order in the local church. It is a warning that EACH and EVERY member of the Body of Christ is a priest in the universal priesthood. The practice of the Nicolaitans is to destroy the function of all the members of the Body of Christ and put in its place those who conquer the common believers.

Christ hates anything that damages the priesthood of every single Christian.
There may indeed be Christians who serve in the work with their full time and are supported by others. But they are not a clergy or priestly class that can substitute for the other members.

The loss of the first love was a step in the degradation of the Christian church in history.

Another step in the degradation was the work of those who conquer over the common people - the Nicolaitans.

We cannot blame only the strong willed people who became bosses of the other believers. We have to place some blame on the passivity of the others to allow such a thing to enter into the church practice. We have to place some responsibility on those who bury the talent at let the ten talented one do everything.

The conquerors of the common believers are at fault.
But the passivity of the others is also at fault.

Loving the Lord with the first love from everyone in the church life can innoculate against the development of a clerical class.

The clergy / laity is also a strain upon those who feel that they bear the full responsibility of the church upon themselves. They can crack up. They can become depressed. And they can be tempted to sin which causes scandel to the whole church.

Therefore the works of the Nicolaitans was a serious step in degradation of the Christian church.

Originally posted by GSWILL
Rajk999, you are going to try to turn a peaceful thread into a fight ?

Loving Christ has nothing to do with how often you tell Christ that you love him.

Sure telling the Lord Jesus that we love Him is involved. That is why Jesus ASKED Peter three times [b]IF ... He loved Him.

If you mean JUST telling Him that we love Him, is e eternal purpose of God to manifest God united with man - a pure golden lampstand.[/b]

I think the first love may refer to loving their fellow Christians by making sure all their needs were met. That is, being concerned for their welfare. That is what seems to be missing to me.

P.S. I think that is part of what Christ meant when He told Peter to show his love by feeding "my sheep" both spiritually and physically.

We show our love by our actions but where Raj and I might disagree is that I believe without God's spirit and grace filling us any works we do are as dung to God.



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
We show our love by our actions but where Raj and I might disagree is that I believe without God's spirit and grace filling us any works we do are as dung to God.



Manny

Works are useless in the eyes of God, if not done out of love.
This both the apostles Paul and James agreed on.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by menace71
We show our love by our actions but where Raj and I might disagree is that I believe without God's spirit and grace filling us any works we do are as dung to God.



Manny

Without the Spirit of Christ we cannot care for the lambs of Christ or the sheep of Christ as the Lord directed Peter. The feeding of the sheep is with the supply that comes out of God's life. And it is a supply that builds up the Body of Christ.

This is seen clearly in the first letter to the Ephesians where Paul says EVERY believer is a joining part of the Body of Christ supplying life to the corporate Body of Christ.

"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ. Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:15,16)

Every Christian is a supplier of the rich supply.
Every Christian can operate for the growth of the Body of Christ.
Every Christian has a "rich" supply.
The operation in every Christian causes the growth of the Body.
The Body of Christ builds up itself in love.
It builds up itself by allowing each member, who is a joining joint, to function to supply the Body with the divine life for divine growth.

So Peter was just a representative of all other followers of Christ. Peter was to be a fisher of men, a feeder of lambs, a shepherder of the sheep, and a feeder of the sheep. He is a representative and all other Christians are to follow his example - his commission from the Master.

In principle, Christ's exhortation is for all the believers in the church in Ephesus to return to the first love and do the first works of building up the church through feeding and shepherding.

Such a church becomes the paradise of God. And in the midst of such a church is the reality of the tree of life.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God." (Rev. 2:7)

Great post Manny.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Works are useless in the eyes of God, if not done out of love.
This both the apostles Paul and James agreed on.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Works are useless in the eyes of God, if not done out of love.
This both the apostles Paul and James agreed on.

This agrees with First Corinthians 13 that the perfect way is always in the divine love. Otherwise we are a clanging cymbal or a noisy sounding brass.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal." (1 Cor. 13:1)

Paul goes on there to show that the understanding of deep mysteries or the charitable giving or even turning over one's body to martyrdom are nothing with out the divine love.

Now love is the issue of life. The divine love is the issue of the divine life. The love of God flowing from man is the issue of the divine life of God imparted into man. And here is how we may know that -

"We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers. He who does not love abides in death." (1 John 3:14)

Divine love for the brothers (feed my sheep) is the indication that we have passed out of death into life. We have the assurance that we have passed out of spiritual death into spiritual divine life because it is evidenced in our love for the brothers.

And the love of the brothers and sisters in Christ is practically manifest in our ministering to them the Christ that we live. This can be practical as well as spiritual. It is a supply. And when all the members function, the operation of God operates and the Body of Christ builds up itself in love.

Back to the Ephesian letter in Revelation - such a church in which all the members function for the producing of the lambs and the feeding of the sheep becomes the Paradise of God. The saints overcome the degradation of the church which has lost its first love. And the overcomers enjoy the Paradise of God in this age and will be rewarded with a further and deeper enjoyment of that Paradise of God in the millennial kingdom.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." (Rev. 2:7)

I will say more about verse 7 lattter.

In the seven local churches in Revelation 2 and 3 there is a repeated scheme. The One who is speaking is discribed. Then the exhortations from Christ to the church are given. The call for those who hear what the Spirit says is included and the call for some to overcome the surrounding degradation.

Following is a promise of some reward to those who overcome. To overcome is not to be superspiritual here. It is to be normal in the face of abnormality. That is to be normal according to the provision of Christ's grace. It is normal that the Christians should be overcoming because Christ is empowering and able to cause us to be victorious.

Therefore to overcome in each epistle is not to rise above the standard. It is to arrive AT the standard. It is not a call to be extraordinary in God's eyes. It is a call to rise above the TYPICAL to become the NORMAL.

In each letter there is a special reward to those who overcome to arrive at normality. That reward is always a continuation and intensification of something enjoyed in the church age. In other words in the millennial kingdom to come there will be an encrease of the enjoyment of what the overcomers enjoy in the church age. That is a reward of a fuller taste of what they foretaste today.

Every church does not present the same things to be overcome. But every church has something which must be overcome.

Throughout church history, all believers were not always called to be overcoming of the same matters. But throughout church history there was and is always something that the saints are called to overcome.

Always it is through the bountiful grace of Christ that we Christians may overcome.

Originally posted by menace71
We show our love by our actions but where Raj and I might disagree is that I believe without God's spirit and grace filling us any works we do are as dung to God.



Manny

I assume from previous post made by yourself [and others of similar thinking] is that the only time Gods spirit and grace fills the believer is after baptism.

Then how do you explain the example of Cornelius in Acts 10 ..

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
(Acts 10:1-4)

So Cornelius was able to do good works without being baptised and his works clearly was not dung as you claim.

Shall we go on with the church in Smyrna ? Please, other comments on the church of Ephesus. One does not exhaust the wisdom of the Bible in a few paragraphs or a few books.

I am going to take some time to speak of the discription of Christ in Revelation 2 and 3.

And I turned to see the voice that spole with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands. And in the midst of he lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, girded about at the breasts with a golden girdle. And His head and hair were as white as wool, as snow; and His ees were like a flame of fire; And His feet were like shining bronze, as having been fired in a furnace; and His voice was like the sound of many wates.

Christ is in the midst of the local churches as a High Priest. He is intereceding in the heavens for the churches as seen in Hebrews 9:24; 7:25-26; and Romans 8:34) .

He not only petitions the Father and prays for the churches, but is in their midst to care for them that as lampstands they would be shining, testifying in a dark world. As the priests cared for the burning lampstands in Exodus, trimming the wicks and supplying oil, so Christ does. To the churches He is taking away the charred burned ashes of old things and suppying the fresh oil of the Holy Spirit.

The best place to receive His care is in the local churches, in the practical oneness.

He is both divine and human. He is like the Son of Man. So He supplying not only the divine nature but His uplifted, resurrected humanity which is high, fine, strong, and able to withstand all kinds of suffering. Christ is caring for the churches by ministering Himself to the churches as the Holy Spirit.

The churches are composed of human beings. Christ in resurrection is STILL a human being - the Son of Man. In His ascended position at the right hand of God He is still the Man Christ Jesus. He is the God-man.

He never put off His humanity. Ever after resurrection the Son of Man is God and Man for eternity. He will never cease to be God and man mingled. So on the throne of the universe is a God-man. A Man has the highest position in all he universe - Jesus the Firstborn Son of God.

In His humanity Christ was victorious and successful in bearing the testimomy of God. He was called "the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev. 1:5)