1. Standard memberAlcra
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    07 Apr '05 12:53
    I was driving my car earlier (irrelevant, but just so you can picture me thinking), and I was thinking, "Am I a sinner?"

    Now, I lie, drink too much on occassion, and from time to time I cuss. On occasion, I mock people I feel are inferior to me, as well as turn green with envy when someone is superior. My next door neighbour has a mighty fine ass, which I covet.

    I watch TV, mow the lawn and drink on the Sabbath. I have not seen the inside of gods house in so long, he must have new carpets by now.

    When my mom visits, we argue, and I rarely listen to her.

    On the other hand, I am kind hearted to my friends, and strangers in need. I am a good father, and a loyal companion. I am not abusive, nor am I a thief, murderer or adulterer (except for the ass-coveting).

    Now, my question again, "Am I a sinner?" In light of what has been said throughout this forum, I am. However, I feel I am not. I have my flaws, but these flaws are well within the bounds of morality, and my virtues, while not truly virtous, are none the less virtues.

    As an atheist I am told that as a sinner I am damned. However, if I repent and take Jesus into my heart, I am saved. The hypocrisy of that statement never fails to amaze me - by lieing to myself and the world, proclaiming to the heavens that I have seen the truth, am I not sinning?


    Who here is a sinner?
  2. Joined
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    07 Apr '05 15:39
    the question is not whether or not you are a good guy, from the sound of it you are (compared to the next person), but consider this;

    i know you don't believe but hypotheitcally accept that there is a place called heaven, where our souls can go after we die.

    If we entered heaven as we are, generally good people with a few flaws, then heaven would contain both good and evil. Now because these things are relative (what we see as good is only good compared to something else), hevaen wouldn't be any kind of reward if both were let it. When we despair at the evil and suffering in the world, it is only compared to what we know, and if we were to remove, say all murder from the world, then rape, thieving and physical abuse would all become much more unbearable. i'm sure you understand, even if a small amount of selfishness or evil entered heaven, then heaven would in a sense be no different to earth.

    but when we are saved the sinful actions burdened on our soul are forgiven bar none. God actually transforms us, or breathes into us new life, so that we are acceptable for heaven.

    some people don't think it's fair that a relatively good person that doesn't ask forgiveness is below a more obvious sinner that does. for one we are born into different lives and experience different situations and we cannot comprehend the different influences and pressures a brother has experienced, so it is unfair for us to judge a fellow man, and secondly, when we're talking about a judgement that lasts to the end of time, to not offer forgiveness for the actions of 70 or so years would be unfair.

    but in answer to your question, we are all sinners. we have all done stuff we know to be wrong, even if we hadn't, our ignorance or lack of comparitive wisdom with god means we have probably caused sorrow without realising it. this isn't to say that God doesn't smile on the good actions that you do, he blesses people equally.

    hth.
  3. Joined
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    07 Apr '05 16:201 edit
    I'm pretty much in the same boat as Alcra.

    Looks like it's an eternity of damnation for me too. :'(

    Ah well, at least I know hell will be full of many of the people I love and care for. Mind you, my daughter is being brought up to be a good little Catholic girl. Now, if she goes to heaven, and I end up in hell forever... seems like a dreadful punishment for my mortal "sins". 😠

    Don't we get some kind of redemption at all in the Afterlife? Maybe a weekend pass-out for good behaviour? 😕
  4. Standard memberColetti
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    07 Apr '05 16:49
    Originally posted by Alcra
    As an atheist I am told that as a sinner I am damned. However, if I repent and take Jesus into my heart, I am saved. The hypocrisy of that statement never fails to amaze me - by lieing to myself and the world, proclaiming to the heavens that I have seen the truth, am I not sinning?
    If you are lying to your self, then you do not believe. If you don't believe, then you are not saved. The words don't save you, anyone can say they are saved, anyone can go through the motions and say the right words.

    The hypocrisy would only be true for yourself, if in fact you do not believe. So the statement itself is not hypocritical. In other words, you would be amazed with your own hypocrisy.

    I think there is always a degree of self-doubt for most Christan's. But the object of our confidence is not within ourselves, it is confidence in the work of Christ. So even doubt does not necessarily negate our salvation.

    Except for Christ, all are sinners.
  5. Standard memberWulebgr
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    07 Apr '05 16:53
    When I drive in traffic, I sin, cursing every incompetent driver around me. I also find myself commiting the sin of envy--envy of those driving M1A2 Abrams, for example (for with the same, and a gunner, I could reduce traffic congestion in a heartbeat).
  6. Standard memberNemesio
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    07 Apr '05 17:42
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    When I drive in traffic, I sin, cursing every incompetent driver around me. I also find myself commiting the sin of envy--envy of those driving M1A2 Abrams, for example (for with the same, and a gunner, I could reduce traffic congestion in a heartbeat).
    This is a page out of my life. Being from New York and having a fair bit of
    experience driving in the big city, resisting the temptation to lower my window
    and 'rip a new one' on the multitude of incompetent drivers in Pittsburgh is a
    testament to strength of my willpower.
  7. Standard memberWheely
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    07 Apr '05 18:21
    Originally posted by Coletti
    If you are lying to your self, then you do not believe. If you don't believe, then you are not saved. The words don't save you, anyone can say they are saved, anyone can go through the motions and say the right words.

    The hypocrisy would only be true for yourself, if in fact you do not believe. So the statement itself is not hypocritical. In other w ...[text shortened]... So even doubt does not necessarily negate our salvation.

    Except for Christ, all are sinners.
    But you can't force yourself to believe something. You either do or you don't, seems almost as unfair as all the people who never hear of Christianity and Jesus their entire lives.
  8. Graceland.
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    07 Apr '05 18:23
    Originally posted by Alcra

    Who here is a sinner?


    Me. For the price of my AMD Athlon CPU and Motherboard, I could probably have saved a few destitute childrens lives in Africa. True, I do give money to a charity there, but was my PC worth it ? If I eat a cheaper lunch every day I can save £20 a month. That could be sufficient to pay for a medicine for a sick child.

    Tell me, what kind of a sinner am I ?
  9. Standard memberColetti
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    07 Apr '05 18:38
    Originally posted by Wheely
    But you can't force yourself to believe something. You either do or you don't, seems almost as unfair as all the people who never hear of Christianity and Jesus their entire lives.
    You're right. You can not force yourself to believe and it does seem unfair.

    Belief in Christ is not an act of our will, it is a gift from God. An unsaved man can understand most of the gospel, can see the logic of it all, can reason out 99% of it, but still not believe it. That last final requirement for true belief must come from God. Man can not save himself by any means.

    So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Rom 9:16 NASB)

    That is why Christians feel so strongly about sharing the gospel.
    How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Rom 10:14 NASB)


  10. Standard memberWheely
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    07 Apr '05 18:48
    Originally posted by Coletti
    You're right. You can not force yourself to believe and it does seem unfair.

    Belief in Christ is not an act of our will, it is a gift from God. An unsaved man can understand most of the gospel, can see the logic of it all, can reason out 99% of it, but still not believe it. That last final requirement for true belief must come from God. Man can not ...[text shortened]... om they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Rom 10:14 NASB)[/quote]

    Are you saying that I don't even have anything to do with it? Either God chooses to allow me to believe and therefore be saved or doesn't?
  11. Standard memberColetti
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    07 Apr '05 18:58
    Originally posted by Wheely
    Are you saying that I don't even have anything to do with it? Either God chooses to allow me to believe and therefore be saved or doesn't?
    Yes. That is what I think scripture says.
  12. Standard memberWheely
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    07 Apr '05 19:19
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Yes. That is what I think scripture says.
    If that is the case then presumably there would be little point in Christians making the effort to save me because I couldn't do anything about it anyway and neither could they. Are you sure the bible says this? I did try to read it once but got a bit bored by the serious begetting explosion that occurs pretty early on so I am no authority on the matter but find it hard to believe this particular feature.
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    07 Apr '05 19:21
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Yes. That is what I think scripture says.
    I'm confused. Wouldn't such a thing circumvent free will?
  14. Standard memberColetti
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    07 Apr '05 19:23
    Originally posted by eagles54
    I'm confused. Wouldn't such a thing circumvent free will?
    Yes it does. See the Free Will thread in the debates section.
  15. Joined
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    07 Apr '05 19:26
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Yes it does. See the Free Will thread in the debates section.
    I'll do that. I was under the impression that God's ultimate grace was available to anyone.


    Curiouser and curiouser...
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