Are you a sinner?

Originally posted by Wheely
If that is the case then presumably there would be little point in Christians making the effort to save me because I couldn't do anything about it anyway and neither could they. Are you sure the bible says this? I did try to read it once but got a bit bored by the serious begetting explosion that occurs pretty early on so I am no authority on the matter but find it hard to believe this particular feature.

See my second verse quoted. God usually conveys belief through knowledge of the gospel. That is why Christians share the gospel.

Although no amount of sharing I do can save someone, God may use my sharing as instrumental to saving someone. Saving faith (belief in Christ) requires knowledge - you can't believe what you don't know.

Although belief through knowledge can be conveyed directly, I think it is usually conveyed through scripture -the sharing of the gospel. But ultimately, who believes is up to God.

Originally posted by Coletti
See my second verse quoted. God usually conveys belief through knowledge of the gospel. That is why Christians share the gospel.

Although no amount of sharing I do can save someone, God may use my sharing as instrumental to saving someone. Saving faith (belief in Christ) requires knowledge - you can't believe what you don't know.

Although belief ...[text shortened]... veyed through scripture -the sharing of the gospel. But ultimately, who believes is up to God.

So if I understand correctly, if I have knowledge of scripture then I may be saved. What is it that's going to make me decide to aquire knowledge of something I currently don't believe in at all, unless it's to make sure I don't believe it in which case I have to aquire knowledge about ghosts, voodoo and the man in the moon too.

I hope I don't sound disrespectful as I don't mean to be. In fact I have a lot of respect for anyone who believes I will be damned and tries to save me even if I don't believe it myself. I just have a problem with understanding how someone suddenly starts believing all this stuff.

Originally posted by eagles54
I'll do that. I was under the impression that God's ultimate grace was available to anyone.


Curiouser and curiouser...

That is the issue of many debates between Arminians and Calvinists. I happen to be a Calvinists.

However, I don't think the issues is so fundamental that those who believe in 'universal atonement' are not saved. I believe in "limited atonement."

Originally posted by Wheely
So if I understand correctly, if I have knowledge of scripture then I may be saved. What is it that's going to make me decide to aquire knowledge of something I currently don't believe in at all, ...

Yes. If you know and understand the gospel, you may be saved. What would compel you to acquire that knowledge? That's a good question. But I don't think believing is an option if you don't "know" what you are rejecting in the first place.

Your rejection of anything is based on some knowledge and understanding. But you would be wise to make sure you understand what you are rejecting. For instance, if you think Christianity is pure nonsense, then I posit that you do not understand Christianity. But if you understand it well enough to see the it is a rational world-view, that you just can't accept as true, then I posit that you have the knowledge needed, and merely lack the belief.

So, is it all stuff-and-nonsense, or can you see any sense in it at all? If you can not see the sense, then perhaps you do not really understand. Just try to maintain a rational perspective, and don't let your emotions overcome you reasoning. Emotional reaction to hearing the gospel is often negative. We tend to reject anything the challenges our autonomy.

Originally posted by Wheely
... I just have a problem with understanding how someone suddenly starts believing all this stuff.

Let me put it this way. I believe that some of the "atheist" and agnostics on this site are just a spiritual/mental smack from the Holy Ghost away from saving faith. They may be vehement reactionaries, but some of them understand the gospel message better than some self-confessing "Christians". They may not admit it, but the gospel makes sense to them, they understand it well enough, and can site the basic tenets to you easily, and tell you many of the implications of the Gospel and God's relationship to man.

Originally posted by Coletti
Yes. If you know and understand the gospel, you may be saved. What would compel you to acquire that knowledge? That's a good question. But I don't think believing is an option if you don't "know" what you are rejecting in the first place.

Your rejection of anything is based on some knowledge and understanding. But you would be wise to make sur ...[text shortened]... o hearing the gospel is often negative. We tend to reject anything the challenges our autonomy.

I take your point and appreciate the time taken to reply to my questions.

However, it seems to me that what you say is valid but would also apply to all the things I don't believe in. What would make it so that I should investigate Christianity rather than ghosts for example.

Originally posted by Wheely
I take your point and appreciate the time taken to reply to my questions.

However, it seems to me that what you say is valid but would also apply to all the things I don't believe in. What would make it so that I should investigate Christianity rather than ghosts for example.

I think you might consider the pros and cons of the time it would take to investigate. What are the benefits? What are the implications? Is this just interesting, or potentially life changing?

If you think there could be some benefit to believing in ghost, then investigate ghost. If you find in your investigation the belief is irrational, then you need not continue as far as belief goes. You can not believe in something that is irrational. You might continue for the fun of it, but as far a belief goes, it's settled.

Christianity is a philosophy that informs your views of everything else. In that way it is like other world-views. If you think it is worth understanding, if only to understand something that has shaped the world, then it might be worth learning.

Originally posted by Coletti
I think you might consider the pros and cons of the time it would take to investigate. What are the benefits? What are the implications? Is this just interesting, or potentially life changing?

If you think there could be some benefit to believing in ghost, then investigate ghost. If you find in your investigation the belief is irrational, then you n ...[text shortened]... g, if only to understand something that has shaped the world, then it might be worth learning.

Thank you Coletti for your very reasonable and honest approach to this. I find that very refreshing.

Originally posted by Coletti
Yes. That is what I think scripture says.

You do have something to do with it. GOD has know from the beginning those that will be saved. But HE gives us the chance to make the choice to accept CHRIST or not.
Try to read ROMANS chapters 2&3.
GOD wants all of mankind to be saved. It is not HIS will or desire that any man be lost. The opportunity is for everyone to accept JESUS CHRIST as their Savior. Hell and everlasting damnation was not prepared for mankind. It was prepared for Satan and those angels that rebelled against GOD.
Most of the world believes that to believe in CHRIST/GOD is weak and foolish but.............For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish,foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God. For it is written , I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not Godn made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness, But unto them which are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is then men; the weakness of God is Stronger than man.For you see your calling, brethen, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and the things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 CORINTHIANS 1:18-29
GOD'S grace is for all mankind. The Salvation that JESUS CHRIST offers is for everyone. Regardless of whatever sins that any man has committed. Noone is excluded all are included.
The salvation of JESUS CHRIST is yours if you will only accept it.

Originally posted by Coletti
Let me put it this way. I believe that some of the "atheist" and agnostics on this site are just a spiritual/mental smack from the Holy Ghost away from saving faith. They may be vehement reactionaries, but some of them understand the gospel message better than some self-confessing "Christians". They may not admit it, but the gospel makes sense to them ...[text shortened]... you easily, and tell you many of the implications of the Gospel and God's relationship to man.

A person begins to believe in JESUS CHRIST, when he admits to himself that he is a sinner. That he so far away from GOD, because of his sin. And that he needs the Love and Salvation that CHRST offers to all mankind. By CHRIST dying on that cross on Calvery.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
You do have something to do with it. GOD has know from the beginning those that will be saved. But HE gives us the chance to make the choice to accept CHRIST or not.

GOD wants all of mankind to be saved [snip].

Your god is supposedly omnipotent. He could SAVE everyone if she supposedly wanted to. Your god reminds me of a cruel kid who likes to pull wings off flies. Why does your god play games?

I thought you had a kind, compassionate and loving god...but no, your quotes always show her as cruel.

Originally posted by Maustrauser

Your god is supposedly omnipotent. He could SAVE everyone if she supposedly wanted to. Your god reminds me of a cruel kid who likes to pull wings off flies. Why does your god play games?

I thought you had a kind, compassionate and loving god...but no, your quotes always show her as cruel.

You're pretty bitter.

He already HAS saved everyone. But not everyone will accept it, and that is their choice, due to free will.

Accept it.

Originally posted by Darfius
You're pretty bitter.

He already HAS saved everyone. But not everyone will accept it, and that is their choice, due to free will.

Accept it.

Good oh, we are all saved. So what's this hell business then?

Bitter? Moi? I'm just constantly amused at how your god is so petty.

Originally posted by sasquatch672
I'm a sinner. And you should learn to love your sins the way I have mine - they're what makes each of use unique. I drink too much, stay out too late, don't work hard enough, don't pay enough attention to my girlfriend, and I like to pinch bottoms. Wouldn't have it any other way. Jesus still loves me.

I am a sinner and I plan to grow old disgracefully. And if I catch any of the jesus cult trying to save me I'll b mightily peeved.