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Originally posted by amannionhow does is creator of the universe or is omnipotent follow from can do things which are supernatural?
Issues like god as creator or god as omnipotent or god as instigator of miracles or whatever, just flow out the assumption of supernatural as a valid explanation for phenomena.
Well, I don't think you can make any progress with a theist. If they assume that supernatural explanations are acceptable then we're at an impasse.
Originally posted by amannion"Do unto others as they would have do unto to you" is not always a good way to go.
[/i]Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here.
But the morality of do unto others does not arise from a belief in god as a creator or any other sort of supernatural entity.
Its a good start, for kids, for example, but at some stage 'true intelligence' must come into the equation.
eg. If you can knock someone out or harms way should you? Even if this same fellow hasn't done it for you.
Again, the 'commandments' are a good starting point, but after that we must assume responsibility for our own conciences. They ,(our conciences), are there for a reason. And that reason is to get in touch with your own thinking and stop listening to others.
I believe its a 'trial and error method', however its the next necessary step to take if one is to truly 'become one' with their own toughts, and hence God.
Originally posted by amannion"Supernatural implies no rules"
Supernatural implies no rules: anything is possible. Want to create a universe? Care to be omnipotent? No probs if supernatural is allowed ...
How so? I never would have thought that.
To me supernatural means having those qualities which cannot be perceived through the physical senses.
Originally posted by josephwMaybe I should've said, supernatural implies no rules to me. If supernatural is allowed - if there can be supernatural explanations for particular events or phenomena, then anything is possible. If that's the case, then as far as I can see there are no rules governing the constituents of the universe - no rules governing particles, forces, energy. Anything is possible.
[b]"Supernatural implies no rules"
How so? I never would have thought that.
To me supernatural means having those qualities which cannot be perceived through the physical senses.[/b]
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Originally posted by amannionSupernatural implies no rules: anything is possible. Want to create a universe? Care to be omnipotent? No probs if supernatural is allowed ...
Supernatural implies no rules: anything is possible. Want to create a universe? Care to be omnipotent? No probs if supernatural is allowed ...
You qualify this statement in a later post saying that *supernatural to you is...* but to myself, the only thing I can take away from the assumption of
*is supernatural*, or *does supernatural things*
is that the rules for what can or can't be done need not be dependent upon our notion of rules. That's pretty much it to be honest (by definition of what it means to be supernatural I should not be able to make any claims as to what is or isn't permissible-perhaps anything can be done (by anything that is supernatural)...perhaps not). So I'm struggling to see how omnipotent creator of universe follows directly.
Originally posted by josephwSo which senses do you perceive them with?
To me supernatural means having those qualities which cannot be perceived through the physical senses.
What I am getting at here is that for physical things, we generally do not directly interact with them but rather perceive their effects, for example the light that reflects of them.
So if a supernatural entity has an effect on the physical universe, then have we perceived it through or physical senses or not?
If there are other ways to 'perceive' things, can you tell me what they are? Are we talking about things like 'word of mouth', or 'logical deduction', or something less concrete like 'intuition' or 'faith'?
My usual understanding of 'supernatural' is "you can't tell me what the rules are because I made them up", or something similar.
It is my belief that anything that interacts with the universe in any way is part of nature, and is therefore 'natural' and everything either follows rules (and is therefore subject to scientific investigation), or is essentially random.
Originally posted by amannion"Anything is possible."
Maybe I should've said, supernatural implies no rules to me. If supernatural is allowed - if there can be supernatural explanations for particular events or phenomena, then anything is possible. If that's the case, then as far as I can see there are no rules governing the constituents of the universe - no rules governing particles, forces, energy. Anything is possible.
As opposed to "nothing is possible?"
So what you're saying is that with the supernatural anything is possible, but without the supernatural nothing is possible?
Why can't there be rules governing the physical universe and there be a creator as well?
Originally posted by twhitehead"So which senses do you perceive them with?"
So which senses do you perceive them with?
What I am getting at here is that for physical things, we generally do not directly interact with them but rather perceive their effects, for example the light that reflects of them.
So if a supernatural entity has an effect on the physical universe, then have we perceived it through or physical senses or not? ...[text shortened]... outh', or 'logical deduction', or something less concrete like 'intuition' or 'faith'?
Your spiritual sense.
"So if a supernatural entity has an effect on the physical universe, then have we perceived it through or physical senses or not?"
Yes. Every waking moment. Everything you sense with your physical senses is a reflection of the spiritual realm that exists beyond the range of your physical senses.
This physical universe is a reflection or picture of what is there beyond the range of your physical senses.
Acknowledging God and trusting in Jesus with the subsequent regeneration of your dead spirit by the Holy Spirit will awaken your spiritual sense.
It's that easy. No long years of meditating or struggling for enlightenment. Just a sudden realization of the truth.
Then it gets really tough.
Originally posted by josephwNo, clearly one is not the opposite of the other when talking about the universe. We have a universe that seems to follow some specific rules. We live on a planet where you can explain phenomena using the same rules. These are natural explanations.
[b]"Anything is possible."
As opposed to "nothing is possible?"
So what you're saying is that with the supernatural anything is possible, but without the supernatural nothing is possible?
Why can't there be rules governing the physical universe and there be a creator as well?[/b]
Many things are possible, but not anything.
Supernatural allows for anything.
Originally posted by AgergOkay, you're right, it's not a series of steps in a logical argument, like "A therefore B". My point is rather that if you allow supernatural as an explanation, then anything is possible, including creators of universes.
[b]Supernatural implies no rules: anything is possible. Want to create a universe? Care to be omnipotent? No probs if supernatural is allowed ...
You qualify this statement in a later post saying that *supernatural to you is...* but to myself, the only thing I can take away from the assumption of
*is supernatural*, or *does supernatural things*
is ...[text shortened]... .perhaps not). So I'm struggling to see how omnipotent creator of universe follows directly.[/b]
Originally posted by amannion"Supernatural allows for anything."
No, clearly one is not the opposite of the other when talking about the universe. We have a universe that seems to follow some specific rules. We live on a planet where you can explain phenomena using the same rules. These are natural explanations.
Many things are possible, but not anything.
Supernatural allows for anything.
Like what?
Within the natural there are "rules" that seem to govern it. So, all of a sudden, just because someone introduces a supernatural element, the rules are broken?
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Originally posted by amannionFair enough...but then since you can't really deduce creator of universe etc from supernatural or, it would seem, from anything else; wouldn't you have to take this as an axiom (if you wanted to enter into a productive discussion about "God" that is)?
Okay, you're right, it's not a series of steps in a logical argument, like "A therefore B". My point is rather that if you allow supernatural as an explanation, then anything is possible, including creators of universes.
I argue, once we establish this as an axiom (whereby one might infer omnipotence) that's about all you need. Anything else is either a valid inference (or dubious claim) which one should expect to justify if asked.