JD Vance has published a book about his spiritual journey to Catholicism. He has publicly stated that he hopes his wife, who is the daughter of Telugu-speaking Indian Hindu immigrants who hail from Andhra Pradesh, will convert to Christianity someday and "see things the same way" that he does.
Why should she not say the same thing about him? Why should he not convert to Hinduism and see things the way she does? Eh? Why this asymmetry?
https://apnews.com/article/interfaith-marriage-jd-vance-hindu-wife-catholic-conversion-8b615c6ff9173632659297b7de552451
Yes, I know, Jesus said to his disciples to go forth and make disciples of all men. He did not say to turn them all into Christians--he couldn't have, there was no such religion in his lifetime. What he meant was to teach all men to be kind to each other, to help each other (like a good Samaritan), to love each other. One does not have to be a Christian to do that.
I refer you to the parable of the Roman Centurian who asked a favor--not for himself, but for his sick servant. Jesus said to him, "Go, your faith has healed him." Not, note, I Jesus have healed him, but your faith--the faith of a pagan.
PS The chapel on the cover of Vance's new book does not depict a Catholic church, but a Methodist one. Looks like somebody didn't do the research.
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@moonbus saidIf every view is equal, one is no better or worse than the next, you’d have a point, but if reality is not altered by personal points of view, and the truth is the truth regardless of human opinion, then there are distinctions with differences between human opinion and the truth, then the truth, not human opinion, is the most important point. The truth sets us free, but only the humble can really search for it, because those who look and believe they cannot be wrong will be arrogant and will not be corrected. All they will do is argue for their point of view, and if they cannot win, they quickly resort to name-calling and belittling others who do not see things their way.
JD Vance has published a book about his spiritual journey to Catholicism. He has publicly stated that he hopes his wife, who is the daughter of Telugu-speaking Indian Hindu immigrants who hail from Andhra Pradesh, will convert to Christianity someday and "see things the same way" that he does.
Why should she not say the same thing about him? Why should he not ...[text shortened]... not depict a Catholic church, but a Methodist one. Looks like somebody didn't do the research.
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@KellyJay saidAnd of course would anybody say their religion is not the truth?
If every view is equal, one is no better or worse than the next, you’d have a point, but if reality is not altered by personal points of view, and the truth is the truth regardless of human opinion, then there are distinctions with differences between human opinion and the truth, then the truth, not human opinion, is the most important point. The truth sets us free, but onl ...[text shortened]... nnot win, they quickly resort to name-calling and belittling others who do not see things their way.
And no, just becuase you believe what you believe doens't make it absolute true.
Jesus did not push anything down the throat of people. He convinced them by his love, until he was crucified. This was initiated by the religious authorities of his time. So beware!
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@KellyJay saidJD is the one belittling his wife’s religion by saying he hopes she will convert to his, not v.v. Why is that? Why do Catholics in particular think everyone should be Catholic, when Hindus are quite content to let non Hindus stay just as they are? Why this asymmetry?
If every view is equal, one is no better or worse than the next, you’d have a point, but if reality is not altered by personal points of view, and the truth is the truth regardless of human opinion, then there are distinctions with differences between human opinion and the truth, then the truth, not human opinion, is the most important point. The truth sets us free, but onl ...[text shortened]... nnot win, they quickly resort to name-calling and belittling others who do not see things their way.
It’s disingenuous to say it’s a matter of truth. EVERY religion claims that for itself. There never was a religion, which said “this is false, but believe it anyway.”
@moonbus saidThe most important point in what I said our opinions do not constrain truth, only reality does that. So it does not matter how many of us believe something, where we believe it, who taught us what. If it isn’t true it isn’t true, so the one we need to focus on is our own beliefs, are they true, and not concern ourselves with numbers or who agrees with us or disagrees. If we spend our time looking at who believes what our focus is on people not what is true.
JD is the one belittling his wife’s religion by saying he hopes she will convert to his, not v.v. Why is that? Why do Catholics in particular think everyone should be Catholic, when Hindus are quite content to let non Hindus stay just as they are? Why this asymmetry?
It’s disingenuous to say it’s a matter of truth. EVERY religion claims that for itself. There never was a religion, which said “this is false, but believe it anyway.”
@Ponderable saidJesus said He was the way, truth, and the life that no one comes to the Father but by Him. He personalized it pointing to Himself, a very exclusive statement and we are free to believe Him or not.
And of course would anybody say their religion is not the truth?
And no, just becuase you believe what you believe doens't make it absolute true.
Jesus did not push anything down the throat of people. He convinced them by his love, until he was crucified. This was initiated by the religious authorities of his time. So beware!
@KellyJay saidEVERY religion makes a similar claim, that it comes from God. Yours is not special in that regard.
Jesus said He was the way, truth, and the life that no one comes to the Father but by Him. He personalized it pointing to Himself, a very exclusive statement and we are free to believe Him or not.
I will let JD speak for himself:
quote
"Do I hope that eventually she is somehow moved by what I was moved by in church? Yeah, honestly, I do wish that, because I believe in the Christian Gospel, and I hope eventually my wife comes to see it the same way," the vice president said. "But if she doesn't, then God says everybody has free will, and so that doesn't cause a problem for me."
end quote
source
https://abc7ny.com/post/turning-point-usa-event-vice-president-jd-vance-says-he-hopes-hindu-wife-usha-chilukuri-converts-christianity/18130419/
If JD genuinely respected his wife's religion, instead of merely paying lipservice to her freedom of choice, he would not entertain hopes of her abandoning it. I have no doubt that JD believes the same thing you believe, namely, that what she believes is false. And that's not the point. Every religion claims to be true--that is a platitude we do not need to discuss.
The point of discussion is this: why the asymmetry? Why do Christians think everyone has to be a Christian, but Hindus and Buddhists are content for non-Hindus and non-Buddhists to stay as they are? It's not about truth. It's about a special kind of arrogance peculiar to the religions of the Levant. The Jews think all the gods of the non-Jews aren't real, and Christians and Moslems followed them on that. Why?
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@moonbus saidI acknowledged there are several claims, I made no attempt to suggest my own should be given special treatment. What I am saying simply because there are several claims that reality and truth are not defined by any human opinion. Truth is only defined by reality not us, the closer to reality our views the closer they are to the truth.
EVERY religion makes a similar claim, that it comes from God. Yours is not special in that regard.
I will let JD speak for himself:
quote
"Do I hope that eventually she is somehow moved by what I was moved by in church? Yeah, honestly, I do wish that, because I believe in the Christian Gospel, and I hope eventually my wife comes to see it the same way," the vice presid ...[text shortened]... ink all the gods of the non-Jews aren't real, and Christians and Moslems followed them on that. Why?
This does suggest absolute truth, which is not the same thing as an opinion about reality or truth.
@KellyJay saidThat has nothing to do with the thread topic.
I acknowledged there are several claims, I made no attempt to suggest my own should be given special treatment. What I am saying simply because there are several claims that reality and truth are not defined by any human opinion. Truth is only defined by reality not us, the closer to reality our views the closer they are to the truth.
This does suggest absolute truth, which is not the same thing as an opinion about reality or truth.
@KellyJay saidKierkegaard said that one who worships the wrong god in the right way is closer to God than one who worships the right one in the wrong way.
If one thinks they are closer to the truth and they think it matters way beyond this lifetime, should they keep their mouths shut?
What do you think of that idea?
Run that past your pastor--I'd be interested to hear what he thinks of that, too.
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@moonbus saidIf you take OT seriously, you will find that the right God and only the right way are acceptable to God. Building alters where God did not want them, and doing things God did not ask for but that are against what God requires, are always rejected. Strange fire got Aaron’s sons killed, and Cain’s offering was rejected.
Kierkegaard said that one who worships the wrong god in the right way is closer to God than one who worships the right one in the wrong way.
What do you think of that idea?
Run that past your pastor--I'd be interested to hear what he thinks of that, too.
@moonbus saidWhere does the asymmetry come from?
Why should she not say the same thing about him? Why should he not convert to Hinduism and see things the way she does? Eh? Why this asymmetry?
Philosophically, looking back, here are two ideas:
Aristotle said the mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain an idea without accepting it.
Keats called the same skill "negative capability" ~ the ability to stay in doubt without reaching for certainty.
When someone can't even imagine another truth might be possible, that's the faculty that's missing.
If one person can imagine two possible truths and the other person can only imagine one, that's asymmetry.
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@Bish saidGood post.
Where does the asymmetry come from?
Philosophically, looking back, here are two ideas:
Aristotle said the mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain an idea without accepting it.
Keats called the same skill "negative capability" ~ the ability to stay in doubt without reaching for certainty.
When someone can't even imagine another truth might be possible, th ...[text shortened]... person can imagine two possible truths and the other person can only imagine one, that's asymmetry.
My own 'take' on Christianity is that the fixation on truth, which @KellyJay so persistently presents, is a consequence of doctrine. That is to say, having a body of propositions to defend and held to be true. Paganism is radically different in this respect. Paganism is not bound by or to any specific body of propositions or sacred book. Certainly there are books about paganism, but none has the internal status of 'holy' as in the Christian (Jewish or Islamic) tradition.
Buddhism and Hinduism are more concerned with mental discipline and ritual acts, than with a body of doctrine or sacred texts. Any Zen master will tell you, it does not matter at all what you believe, whether in god or gods or none at all, in reincarnation and past lives or not. Belief simply does not have this central, eternal, and all-consuming status in other religions. That is another asymmetry, and I think it bears directly on this issue of truth which @KellyJay keeps bringing up--in a religion where 'truth' and 'belief' and 'doctrine' are secondary or even tertiary, trying to get other people to agree with one's own little fragment of truth isn't important.
Aristotle said the mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain an idea without accepting it.
Good point, one which highlights the specifically Christian idea of heresy. There is no such thing as heresy in other religions. Blasphemy, yes; offending the gods, even pagans had this concept. But heresy is specifically Christian, and heresy is only possible because of this obsession with the truth of doctrines. Heresy is believing something at variance with what the Pope decrees (whether or not he believes it himself). Heresy is thought-crime. Heresy is entertaining an idea the Pope does not want you to entertain, even if you know it is false.
@moonbus saidSo you argue that if we have any position on any matter, it doesn’t matter what it is, that is okay because no one is really wrong? What a strange, absolute opinion that is!
Good post.
My own 'take' on Christianity is that the fixation on truth, which @KellyJay so persistently presents, is a consequence of doctrine. That is to say, having a body of propositions to defend and held to be true. Paganism is radically different in this respect. Paganism is not bound by or to any specific body of propositions or sacred book. Certainly there are book ...[text shortened]... eresy is entertaining an idea the Pope does not want you to entertain, even if you know it is false.