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    02 Jun '11 10:381 edit
    While researching in earnest whether atheism is truly a religious stance (it depends of course on ones definition of religion), although there can be no doubt that it relies on a certain extent to unobserved phenomena, like the creation of life from non living matter, just by way of example, it struck me that during my conversations here with my atheist friends/enemies, they in attacking the stance of, in my case, Christianity and its basis in scripture, of necessity, must have confirmed to themselves that they truly believe that their morality is in some way superior. I would like to put this question to my atheist friends/enemies in earnest, do you think that this is the case? Is your morality superior to the Christian and if so, how so?
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Jun '11 10:462 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    While researching in earnest whether atheism is truly a religious stance (it depends of course on ones definition of religion), although there can be no doubt that it relies on a certain extent to unobserved phenomena, like the creation of life from non living matter, just by way of example, it struck me that during my conversations here with my athe ...[text shortened]... you think that this is the case? Is your morality superior to the Christian and if so, how so?
    My morality is superior to the primitive human inventors of your god - and thus my morality transcends your god.

    As for most Christians, given many don't actually slavishly follow the teachings of the Bible (i.e. upholding the virtues of slavery, stoning, suppression of women and so on...) - then I'd have to say no. They just believe in magic friends and get their morality from the same place as I - society and common sense (they merely pin it on "God" ).
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    02 Jun '11 10:521 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    My morality is superior to the primitive human inventors of your god - and thus my morality transcends your god.

    As for most Christians, given many don't actually slavishly follow the teachings of the Bible (i.e. upholding the virtues of slavery, stoning, suppression of women and so on...) - then I'd have to say no. They just believe in magic friends and ge ...[text shortened]... morality from the same place as I - society and common sense (they merely pin it on "God" ).
    Actually dear Agers they derive their morality from the personage of Jesus Christ, which is real and apparent from reading scripture. So then, if this is the case, you would say that your morality does not transcend that of the Christ. Why are you therefore not a Christian? Is it simply non belief in the supernatural that has made you atheistic?
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    02 Jun '11 11:091 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Actually dear Agers they derive their morality from the personage of Jesus Christ, which is real and apparent from reading scripture. So then, if this is the case, you would say that your morality does not transcend that of the Christ. Why are you therefore not a Christian? Is it simply non belief in the supernatural that has made you atheistic?
    I'd be more inclined to say they pattern match their own inherent morality to Jesus Christ - a coincidental situation at best. Christians can be just as much ar$eholes as atheists or anyone else (and of course vica-versa); though with the likes of those affiliated with the Westboro baptists and so on... they really are just rotten; indeed they lack the decency to commit the double think that other Christians practice with respect to the Bible.
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    02 Jun '11 11:21
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'd be more inclined to say they pattern match their own inherent morality to Jesus Christ - a coincidental situation at best. Christians can be just as much ar$eholes as atheists or anyone else (and of course vica-versa); though with the likes of those affiliated with the Westboro baptists and so on... they really are just rotten; indeed they lack the decency to commit the double think that other Christians practice with respect to the Bible.
    yes but i am asking you not to view the morality of the Christ with other Christians and what they practice, but with yourself and your own sense of morality.
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    02 Jun '11 11:242 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes but i am asking you not to view the morality of the Christ with other Christians and what they practice, but with yourself and your own sense of morality.
    I have done that; I simply say my morality is sourced from the same place as any other decent human in the world - conventions of society, common sense and empathy for other humans/creatures. The only real difference is I don't pin it on Jesus etc...
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    02 Jun '11 12:14
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I have done that; I simply say my morality is sourced from the same place as any other decent human in the world - conventions of society, common sense and empathy for other humans/creatures. The only real difference is I don't pin it on Jesus etc...
    mmm, its not really clear what you are saying. You see for a Christian, he or she recognises in Christ a higher morality, a perfect morality if you like, which, although it cannot be attained to in perfection (for we make mistakes and are prone to aberration), it is worthy of emulation and through this act of emulation, it is hoped that ones own morality shall be lifted up a notch or two, thus the Christian may even be able to overcome deeply entrenched personality traits and transform his personality to be more in harmony with the Christ. How does one achieve the same through common sense, convention and trying to be more empathetic.
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    02 Jun '11 12:44
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    While researching in earnest whether atheism is truly a religious stance (it depends of course on ones definition of religion), although there can be no doubt that it relies on a certain extent to unobserved phenomena, like the creation of life from non living matter, just by way of example, it struck me that during my conversations here with my athe ...[text shortened]... you think that this is the case? Is your morality superior to the Christian and if so, how so?
    Morality and atheism are not directly related. You can be moral and religious and moral and an atheist. You can also be immoral and be either one. For example, if you are anti gay because of the bible, or anti gay marriage because of the bible, you are clearly not moral! The same would be true if you were an atheist.
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    02 Jun '11 12:49
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    While researching in earnest whether atheism is truly a religious stance (it depends of course on ones definition of religion), although there can be no doubt that it relies on a certain extent to unobserved phenomena, like the creation of life from non living matter, just by way of example,
    I have to point out that my lack of belief in God does not depend in any way on the Theory or Evolution or abiogenesis, or the Big Bang or any other science for that matter. It is founded on one thing, and one thing only - an absence of reason for believing in God.
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    02 Jun '11 12:501 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    While researching in earnest whether atheism is truly a religious stance (it depends of course on ones definition of religion), although there can be no doubt that it relies on a certain extent to unobserved phenomena, like the creation of life from non living matter, just by way of example, it struck me that during my conversations here with my athe ...[text shortened]... you think that this is the case? Is your morality superior to the Christian and if so, how so?
    In what sense "intrinsically superior" or "inferior"?

    My first impression is that, for any person, any morality that is different from his own will seem "inferior" (or not as adequate) to him. Almost by definition.
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    02 Jun '11 13:02
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Morality and atheism are not directly related. You can be moral and religious and moral and an atheist. You can also be immoral and be either one. For example, if you are anti gay because of the bible, or anti gay marriage because of the bible, you are clearly not moral! The same would be true if you were an atheist.
    yes , but you fail to answer the question, is your morality superior to the Christ, if not, why are you not a Christian?
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    02 Jun '11 13:04
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have to point out that my lack of belief in God does not depend in any way on the Theory or Evolution or abiogenesis, or the Big Bang or any other science for that matter. It is founded on one thing, and one thing only - an absence of reason for believing in God.
    absence of reason is not good enough, the agnostic may also claim absence of reason, yet he is open to the possibility of a supernatural entity, not so with atheism, in fact, by its very nature it presupposes are purely material view of the emergence of life and its diversity. You cannot escape this fact.
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    02 Jun '11 13:171 edit
    Originally posted by Palynka
    In what sense "intrinsically superior" or "inferior"?

    My first impression is that, for any person, any morality that is different from his own will seem "inferior" (or not as adequate) to him. Almost by definition.
    One becomes an atheist through the process of reflection and evaluation , does one not? It is also apparent that in many instances (for example Agers attack on the biblical mandates of the Mosaic law), that he feels a moral superiority in this regard. I was simply wondering if that was the case, does the Atheist feel a moral superiority or not, or is it as you have asserted, entirely relative to the individual depending on the evaluation of factors to self.? which in itself does not negate the possibility. This last statement is interesting, for the Christian has adopted another morality not of his own originality, everything therefore becomes relative not to self, but to the example of the Christ, thus his morality has a point of reference, which in itself may prove useful for its not always easy or helpful to trust ones own reasoning, which may be faulty, especially if the faculty of conscience is severed so that its insensitive, for what else does the atheist have, except his mind and conscience?
  14. Standard memberPalynka
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    02 Jun '11 13:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    One becomes an atheist through the process of reflection and evaluation , does one not? It is also apparent that in many instances (for example Agers attack on the biblical mandates of the Mosaic law), that he feels a moral superiority in this regard. I was simply wondering if that was the case, does the Atheist feel a moral superiority or not, or ...[text shortened]... ed so that its insensitive, for what else does the atheist have, except his mind and conscience?
    There is less difference than you seem to imply. Christians adopt an external point of reference, but there are radically different interpretations across Christian groups about what exactly were the moral teachings of Christ.

    Any point of reference then requires a mind and conscience to be interpreted and so I think ultimately everyone's real point of reference is himself. In this sense, anyone that will interpret Christ differently will again (by definition) have seemingly "inferior" morals views than him. If the individual felt some were better than his, then he would adopt them.
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    02 Jun '11 13:321 edit
    Originally posted by Palynka
    There is less difference than you seem to imply. Christians adopt an external point of reference, but there are radically different interpretations across Christian groups about what exactly were the moral teachings of Christ.

    Any point of reference then requires a mind and conscience to be interpreted and so I think ultimately everyone's real point of r s views than him. If the individual felt some were better than his, then he would adopt them.
    yes, that is brilliant, most excellent, its true, we do and must evaluate these things, even as Christians. However, it begs the question, what are the atheists points of reference? is it as Agers stated, social convention, humanity and fellow feeling? It seems to me in such an instance, convention changes, and one may be blown hither and zither by every wind of teaching? It also seems quite transient.
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