Atheists in Church

Originally posted by Regicidal
The ancient OT writers were puzzled by this as well. Why do bad things happen to good people? So they came up with a rationalization, ie. the sins of the fathers are manifest even unto the third and fourth generations.
I guess no one is safe.

I would say that the book of Job was written to help answer such questions. If memory serves, it is considered to be the oldest book in the Old Testament.

Why is God always blamed for bad things, and Satan always gets a pass?😕

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Why is God always blamed for bad things, and Satan always gets a pass?😕

It's Satan's world!

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Why is God always blamed for bad things, and Satan always gets a pass?😕

I suppose we are suppose to live in a perfect painless world while he is on the loose trying to create havoc.

Originally posted by josephw
It's Satan's world!

Not for long. 😵

Originally posted by whodey
My arguement against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was suppo ...[text shortened]... tures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

C.S. Lewis

(Not my father, as I mentioned in my post, but my grandfather suffers from schizophrenia, etc. No worries. Anyway...moving on.)

I recently wrote an paper for an English class regarding the perspectives on classical theism of Lewis and Shelley. Both are very stubborn about their beliefs; Lewis is a theist (a "reluctant" convert to Christianity at the age of 30) and Shelley is an atheist. Naturally nobody really knows what they are talking about when considering the supernatural. Yet both were adamant in their beliefs.

Of course both believed strongly in the power of reason. I saw that word many times in Shelley's paper "The Necessity of Theism." But reason is the true enemy of science. Reasoning the way through things is not the way to discover truth. The years and thinking between Aristotle and perhaps until about the time of the Industrial Revolution evidence that. To discover truth, one must consider all evidence objectively, dissect the evidence from each angle, form testable hypothesis, and reproducible experiments.

Both have the power of words, the power of reason, the power to sway the minds of people. But neither is convincing. Meaning in life is personal, it's wherever one finds it.

Lewis implies that without God, life is meaningless. But I find meaning anyway. I find everything extraordinary. I don't know what life, this universe, and everything means, I don't know if anybody ever will. I just know that it can be wonderful and not so wonderful.

Originally posted by Yuga
(Not my father, as I mentioned in my post, but my grandfather suffers from schizophrenia, etc. No worries. Anyway...moving on.)

I recently wrote an paper for an English class regarding the perspectives on classical theism of Lewis and Shelley. Both are very stubborn about their beliefs; Lewis is a theist (a "reluctant" convert to Christianity at the age ...[text shortened]... t know if anybody ever will. I just know that it can be wonderful and not so wonderful.

Theists would say you are lying to yourself. Only THEISTS can know happiness. And other BS.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Why is God always blamed for bad things, and Satan always gets a pass?😕

When Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Harold Kushner. No need to blame God, Satan—or the victim.

When nontheists “blame” God, they are usually doing so within the framework of the Euthyphro’s dilemma. I think that is an insurmountable argument vis-à-vis some understandings of “God.” Coletti, if I recall, bit the bullet on God’s omnibenevolence. Kushner bites the bullet on God’s omnipotence.

I decline the bullet by moving to monism; panentheism may do the same thing, I’m just not certain though.

EDIT: Since I attached this to your post, CB, didn't you and I once both cite Kushner?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Theists would say you are lying to yourself. Only THEISTS can know happiness. And other BS.

Theism and happiness are not mutually exclusive, and I think many understand this. People do gain comfort and generally good values from religion, and that is a good thing. 🙂 Additionally, Christians can go out and have a good time like anybody else. And people can reconcile beliefs in God with other beliefs; scientists can reconcile beliefs of God and evolution (evolution absolutely is an accurate, confirmed theory), for instance.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Why is God always blamed for bad things, and Satan always gets a pass?😕

Because God claims to be stronger than Satan and capable of stopping him. So if Satan does something bad and God does nothing about it then God is ultimately responsible for his inaction. The question is alway "why does God allow" and not "why does God cause".

Originally posted by Yuga

Lewis implies that without God, life is meaningless. But I find meaning anyway. I find everything extraordinary. I don't know what life, this universe, and everything means, I don't know if anybody ever will. I just know that it can be wonderful and not so wonderful.[/b]

I think the question is to ask what gives life meaning? If there is no God then life only has meaning to ourselves. It has no other meaning but to ourselves, thus, saying that your life has meaning is simply an illusion based upon your own perspective compared to the greater reality of the meaningless universe without God. And if meaning in your life is merely an illusion there is no REAL meaning. I think that is what Lewis is getting at.

The only way for your life to have a genuine meaning apart from your perspective, therefore, is if there is a God who values your existence.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Because God claims to be stronger than Satan and capable of stopping him. So if Satan does something bad and God does nothing about it then God is ultimately responsible for his inaction. The question is alway "why does God allow" and not "why does God cause".

Never have I read in the bible that God "allows", etc....Satan likes everyone to think that, but I do not believe this is the case. Satan was given authority over this world by Adam. God gave it to Adam and Adam was tricked into turning it over to the serpent. God would not be God if He just took it away. He had to do it "legally", if you will, through the sacrifice of His Son. God is Holy, and He cannot go against His own Word....but His plan is very cool in the way He is going, or rather has gone about redeeming man back to Himself...Satan is defeated and he knows it. When Christians wake up and learn who they really are in Christ, and what authority they have in Christ, it will turn this world upside down!

Originally posted by vistesd
When Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Harold Kushner. No need to blame God, Satan—or the victim.

When nontheists “blame” God, they are usually doing so within the framework of the Euthyphro’s dilemma. I think that is an insurmountable argument vis-à-vis some understandings of “God.” Coletti, if I recall, bit the bullet on God’s omni ...[text shortened]...
EDIT: Since I attached this to your post, CB, didn't you and I once both cite Kushner?

Yes we did indeed. "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The question should be "Why do good things happen to bad people"?

Originally posted by louisXIV
Well, there is no other ancient book that is as accurate as the Bible. There are thousands of copies from the first century on that show the same facts.

This is categorically false. The first complete copies survive from the
fourth century there are only hundreds of fragments surviving from
before that time, some are as small as a postage stamp. There are
countless variants, most minor, some major in most of the verses
of the NT. Even which books were considered to be canonical wasn't
ratified until the fourth century (although some Christians take it
upon themselves to remove seven books from the canon starting in
the 16th century).

Even historians from that period of time ( such as Flavius Josephus) approve the biblical contents about the life of Jesus.

What a pile! That claim is absolutely absurd. Yes, Josephus ratifies
that Jesus existed, but the idea that he approves the Biblical contents
about Jesus is outlandish, since the Gospels hadn't even been compiled
in a coherent form by the time Josephus died! The vast majority of
1st-century scholars consider the 'Jesus is the Christ' bit in his
antiquities to be a later interpolation.

I don't know if this answers your question about the accuracy of the Bible. Scrolls found close to the Dead See in Israel, being more than 2000 years old, have shown that not even the slightest changings have occured in the biblical text of the old testament (I admit some spelling mistakes where there, but apart from that it was identical)

Yes, the Dead Sea scrolls are highly accurate, and the Jewish adherence
to textual accuracy is admirable and impressive (it's more than simply
a few spelling mistakes, by the way). However, the Dead Sea Scrolls
also reflect a competing canon of what was regarded as Scripture
and Holy, indicating discord (discord that lingers in the text of the Bible,
such as the quotation in the letter to Jude that cites Enoch as Scripture
(not regarded by any mainstream Christian as Scripture nowadays) as
well as giving the Assumption of Moses (an apocryphal text) a certain
level of Scriptural authority.

So, whoever told you whatever you think you know is either totally wrong,
too, or a liar.

Nemesio

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Never have I read in the bible that God "allows", etc....Satan likes everyone to think that, but I do not believe this is the case. Satan was given authority over this world by Adam. God gave it to Adam and Adam was tricked into turning it over to the serpent.

Wow. What a pile of dogmatic, non-Scriptural nonsense!