1. Standard memberUmbrageOfSnow
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    26 Mar '07 15:01
    So I went to church yesterday, I'm not any more convinced. Here is my question though:

    I was sitting there, not believing a word of it, but being respectful, playing along. I suspect there are some "christians" who don't believe it any more than I do, just don't want to identify themselves as atheist. Isn't that some sort of sin right there, going to church and not believing in the "house of god"? So am I not more damned now than I already was? (Assuming you people are right)? If so, why did people say "nice to see you here" and things, do Christians enjoy my theorhetical damnation?
  2. Standard memberYuga
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    26 Mar '07 18:51
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    So I went to church yesterday, I'm not any more convinced. Here is my question though:

    I was sitting there, not believing a word of it, but being respectful, playing along. I suspect there are some "christians" who don't believe it any more than I do, just don't want to identify themselves as atheist. Isn't that some sort of sin right there, goin ...[text shortened]... say "nice to see you here" and things, do Christians enjoy my theorhetical damnation?
    Many of the nicest people I have ever met are practicing Christians, people who seriously believe in Christian values. Naturally they are good people. And I have met people of many ethnicities, and with various religious views.

    The vitality of a church lies with its people; fortuntately for me, I went to a good church. A good church inspires people to participate not only in Mass but in the community. A good church is never purely ceremonial in nature,

    Belief in Christianity can and does inspire people to be good people, and do good things.

    Although I cannot believe in a personal God, or in an afterlife, I still hold most Christian values as true; my beliefs in part instilled in me by the church.

    Yet people may claim Christians ignorant because they consider Christianity false. But they are wrong in saying that the Bible must be historically accurate for Christianity to thrive.

    Even if Jesus is not divine, and certainly, it is quite conceivable that he is not divine; the message regarding love, forgiveness, initiative still resonates true for me, and for others. And belief, not facts, is generally what matters.

    I assure you that true Christians would not enjoy your theorhetical eternal damnation. 🙂
  3. not of this world
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    26 Mar '07 18:551 edit
    Originally posted by Yuga
    Many of the nicest people I have ever met are practicing Christians, people who seriously believe in Christian values. Naturally they are good people. And I have met people of many ethnicities, and with various religious views.

    The vitality of a church lies with its people; fortuntately for me, I went to a good church. A good church inspires people to p ...[text shortened]... .

    I assure you that true Christians would not enjoy your theorhetical eternal damnation. 🙂
    Why do you assume that Jesus was not divine? Only if he was divine, the things he said and claims he made would make sens, such as "I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father than by me".
  4. Standard memberYuga
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    26 Mar '07 19:14
    Originally posted by louisXIV
    Why do you assume that Jesus was not divine? Only if he was divine, the things he said and claims he made would make sens, such as "I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father than by me".
    Correct. But I am unsure of the historical accuracy of the Bible.

    I do not know what is known to be true about Jesus's life, what he did, and what he said. I do not know about the accuracy of the Bible.

    If there is factual evidence to prove the divinity of Jesus, and essentially, the accuracy of the Bible, I am very interested.

    In essence, I would like to know what is true about Jesus and the Bible, what is not, and what is speculative, and if speculative, how speculative.
  5. Standard memberdj2becker
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    26 Mar '07 19:26
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    So I went to church yesterday, I'm not any more convinced. Here is my question though:

    I was sitting there, not believing a word of it, but being respectful, playing along. I suspect there are some "christians" who don't believe it any more than I do, just don't want to identify themselves as atheist. Isn't that some sort of sin right there, goin ...[text shortened]... say "nice to see you here" and things, do Christians enjoy my theorhetical damnation?
    May I ask to which church you went to?
  6. not of this world
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    26 Mar '07 19:272 edits
    Originally posted by Yuga
    Correct. But I am unsure of the historical accuracy of the Bible.

    I do not know what is known to be true about Jesus's life, what he did, and what he said. I do not know about the accuracy of the Bible.

    If there is factual evidence to prove the divinity of Jesus, and essentially, the accuracy of the Bible, I am very interested.

    In essence, I would ...[text shortened]... Jesus and the Bible, what is not, and what is speculative, and if speculative, how speculative.
    Wow, many very interesting questions at the same time. Let's start with the first one:
    [b]Correct. But I am unsure of the historical accuracy of the Bible.


    Well, there is no other ancient book that is as accurate as the Bible. There are thousands of copies from the first century on that show the same facts. Even historians from that period of time ( such as Flavius Josephus) approve the biblical contents about the life of Jesus.

    I don't know if this answers your question about the accuracy of the Bible. Scrolls found close to the Dead See in Israel, being more than 2000 years old, have shown that not even the slightest changings have occured in the biblical text of the old testament (I admit some spelling mistakes where there, but apart from that it was identical)

    Have you ever read parts of the Bible? It's the best way to find out more about Jesus. And the best way to experience him, is to ask him to come into your life. I assure you, you will be amazed.

    Tell me what you want to know, and I will answer further questions as far as I am able to.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
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    26 Mar '07 19:46
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    So I went to church yesterday, I'm not any more convinced. Here is my question though:

    I was sitting there, not believing a word of it, but being respectful, playing along. I suspect there are some "christians" who don't believe it any more than I do, just don't want to identify themselves as atheist. Isn't that some sort of sin right there, goin ...[text shortened]... say "nice to see you here" and things, do Christians enjoy my theorhetical damnation?
    Sounds like you do a lot of imagining about what people may or may not be thinking.
  8. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    26 Mar '07 21:37
    Originally posted by louisXIV
    Why do you assume that Jesus was not divine? Only if he was divine, the things he said and claims he made would make sens, such as "I am the way, the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father than by me".
    Why do you assume he was? Other than the bible, which can be easily shown to be a corrupt document (the Jehovahs Witnesses guess at about 50,000 mistakes), what evidence do you have of Jesus' divinity?
  9. Standard memberYuga
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    27 Mar '07 00:00
    Originally posted by louisXIV
    Tell me what you want to know, and I will answer further questions as far as I am able to.
    It doesn't quite answer my question about the accuracy of the Bible, but it is a start. 🙂

    I've read much of Genesis (because it's in the beginning of the Bible, and evolution is an interesting topic to me), much of Psalms (because those are comforting) and some of Revelations (when the Left Behind series became relatively popular, I wanted to know what the fuss was about, and I would never want to read those books.).

    Thank you for offering to answer questions; that's very kind of you and I really appreciate it. 🙂

    For any theist (any person who believes in a god) :

    How do you sense the supernatural?

    If I want to listen to music, I can turn the radio on. If I want to listen to God, how can I listen to Him?

    If God is in my life, he operates in ways so subtle, I cannot detect Him.

    How do you know that there is an afterlife? When somebody dies, their body and mind rots. Without a brain, one loses consciousness or awareness of oneself, and enters oblivion.

    I bring up consciousness because it is alterable. Altering one's brain significantly can completely change a person. Mental disease can completely destroy a person. Too often.

    For instance, I know somebody (not my father) who was a good Christian man, and then he developed schizophrenia (the paranoid type). Symptoms started appearing around the age of 22, and he gradually declined.

    He became paranoid; he thought people were after him. Delusional. To this day, he thinks that people "are after his documents," documents that don't exist.

    He became hurtful. Easily agitated. His hands and feet constantly shift uneasily. Abusive. His family was forced to abandon him. If I recall correctly, abusive behavior is not often associated with schizophrenia, yet sadly it was in his case.

    Eventually he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and received the proper medications. But he lost his family in the process. Of course they support him now. But now he suffers from dementia. He has shrunk; he is about four inches shorter than he used to be, and his hands have become smaller.

    Why would God allow a good, practicing Christian develop paranoid schizophrenia in his prime, causing him to come agitated, then abusive, hurting his family, and finally to allow him to develop dementia?

    Mind and body are physical entities, and so they are observable. What, then, is a soul, if it is not a physical entity? Don't we lose our soul when we lose our minds?
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    27 Mar '07 17:521 edit
    Originally posted by Yuga
    It doesn't quite answer my question about the accuracy of the Bible, but it is a start. 🙂

    I've read much of Genesis (because it's in the beginning of the Bible, and evolution is an interesting topic to me), much of Psalms (because those are comforting) and some of Revelations (when the Left Behind series became relatively popular, I wanted to know what the a soul, if it is not a physical entity? Don't we lose our soul when we lose our minds?
    My arguement against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal; a fish would not feel wet. Of coarse, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own or our own.
    But if I did that, then my arguement against God collapsed too--for the arguement depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning; just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

    C.S. Lewis

    Edit: Sorry to hear about your father. I am sure he is in a better place. I too struggled with similar issues.
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    27 Mar '07 18:08
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    So I went to church yesterday, I'm not any more convinced. Here is my question though:

    I was sitting there, not believing a word of it, but being respectful, playing along. I suspect there are some "christians" who don't believe it any more than I do, just don't want to identify themselves as atheist. Isn't that some sort of sin right there, goin ...[text shortened]... say "nice to see you here" and things, do Christians enjoy my theorhetical damnation?
    Why do they like to see you in church even though they may know you are not a true believer? Well, I think the answer for me is obvious. If they are right and you are wrong, how will you ever be shown that you are wrong? Will it be by exposing you to the same line of thinking that cause you to reject the correct line of thinking or will it be by exposing you to the correct way of thinking verses the same old record that repeats itself over and over and over again in your mind?

    Is it better to have doubt or faith? Is it better to have hope or surrender to an attitude of helpless inevitability? Is it better to love or to hate, even those who hate you? Is it better to have your ultimate fate in your own hands in which you have a very limited control or is it better to have your ultimate fate in the hands of a Being that is all powerful and benevolent? Is it better to have a child or is it better to abort that child? Have you ever seen a mother who wished she had aborted her child? Is it better to love yourself and those around you more than the One who gave you your own life with those loved ones to love? I think these are all good questions to ponder even if it does not change your heart.
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    27 Mar '07 18:10
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Why do you assume he was? Other than the bible, which can be easily shown to be a corrupt document (the Jehovahs Witnesses guess at about 50,000 mistakes), what evidence do you have of Jesus' divinity?
    Well if the JW's say its so then it must be. Say, when did you convert Scotty? After all, they have all the answers, no? 😛
  13. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    27 Mar '07 19:20
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well if the JW's say its so then it must be. Say, when did you convert Scotty? After all, they have all the answers, no? 😛
    Hey, I took lucifershammer to pieces on this the other day. I can beaaach-slap you to, if you so desire.
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    27 Mar '07 19:24
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    So I went to church yesterday, I'm not any more convinced. Here is my question though:

    I was sitting there, not believing a word of it, but being respectful, playing along. I suspect there are some "christians" who don't believe it any more than I do, just don't want to identify themselves as atheist. Isn't that some sort of sin right there, goin ...[text shortened]... say "nice to see you here" and things, do Christians enjoy my theorhetical damnation?
    Would you be surprised to learn that, even though you were in church, someone there could see through your guise?
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    27 Mar '07 23:54
    Originally posted by Yuga
    Why would God allow a good, practicing Christian develop paranoid schizophrenia in his prime, causing him to come agitated, then abusive, hurting his family, and finally to allow him to develop dementia?
    The ancient OT writers were puzzled by this as well. Why do bad things happen to good people? So they came up with a rationalization, ie. the sins of the fathers are manifest even unto the third and fourth generations.
    I guess no one is safe.
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