1. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    30 Jan '17 18:153 edits

    The bible is so full of embarrassing contradictions and acts of divine monstrosity that I thought you might rather like to re-write it and take all that unpalatable stuff out. You could even put some stuff in about the trinity.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    - Ghost of a Duke


    Well, maybe you're right. I said MAYBE.

    Now tell me of the two biggest problematic contradictions in your Bible.
    Don't save the biggest until latter. Tell me of your two most problematic contradictions up front.

    I'm out on a limb here now, so go ahead. I may have to agree.
    But I have been enjoying the revelation of the Bible for many years through thick and thin and don't intend to give it up.

    So what really bad two contradictions should I be concerned about ?

    Is the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God one of the two worst contradictions for you?
  2. Standard memberchaney3
    Bring it on.......
    Joined
    26 Dec '14
    Moves
    29680
    30 Jan '17 18:37
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]
    The bible is so full of embarrassing contradictions and acts of divine monstrosity that I thought you might rather like to re-write it and take all that unpalatable stuff out. You could even put some stuff in about the trinity.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    - Ghost of a Duke


    Well, maybe you're right. I s ...[text shortened]... ed about ?

    Is the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God one of the two worst contradictions for you?[/b]
    I don't have the Bible verses handy, but I think it says that God loves us.

    Using the holocaust as an example only, where was God's love?

    Is human free will more powerful than God's love?

    Not sure if this is what you had in mind sonship, but it's important to me.
  3. Standard memberchaney3
    Bring it on.......
    Joined
    26 Dec '14
    Moves
    29680
    30 Jan '17 18:531 edit
    One more question, if allowed.

    If an 18 year old Jew, who did not yet believe in Jesus, got immediately killed by Nazis, is his destiny hell?

    Meaning, did the Nazi's free will indirectly send the Jews to an eternity in hell, by stripping the Jews of an opportunity to know Jesus?
  4. SubscriberGhost of a Dukeonline
    A Spirited Misfit
    in London
    Joined
    14 Mar '15
    Moves
    8503
    30 Jan '17 19:46
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]
    The bible is so full of embarrassing contradictions and acts of divine monstrosity that I thought you might rather like to re-write it and take all that unpalatable stuff out. You could even put some stuff in about the trinity.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    - Ghost of a Duke


    Well, maybe you're right. I s ...[text shortened]... ed about ?

    Is the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God one of the two worst contradictions for you?[/b]
    Will come to this tomorrow sonship.

    Atheist promise. (Am about to watch a film with the good wife).
  5. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    30 Jan '17 21:111 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    I don't have the Bible verses handy, but I think it says that God loves us.

    Using the holocaust as an example only, where was God's love?

    Is human free will more powerful than God's love?

    Not sure if this is what you had in mind sonship, but it's important to me.
    Dust off your Bible. You can read a chapter or two or three.
    Do you stay away from the Bible because of fear that reading it may change you?

    Over the sixteen hundred years in which the 66 books of the Bible were written, some very bad tragedies occurred. For example, the descendents of Jacob were under the cruelest ethnic cleansing, genocide, and slavary in the most powerful nation - Egypt. And this they suffered as a nation for 400 years.

    But as I read I do not see God's love or His plan stopped by the four centuries preceding the Exodus under Moses. In fact those four centuries probably gave the descendants of Jacob mighty incentive to be delivered to become the one and only genuinely theocratic nation in history - Israel.

    Other tragic things happened as I continue the reading through the other Old Testament books. God's love, God's salvation and deliverance, and God faitfhulness are torture tested by every kind of setback.

    A trite or easy answer to the history of the Holocaust I would not dare to give you.
    But I don't believe its occurrence proves God does not love man.

    Tragedy by tragedy is certainly not easy to explain. But we Christians do know that God's tract record for faithfulness in His love is impressive. And His promise is an eternal age in which every tear of man is wiped away. Death, sorrow, fear and pain will be no more. They will be part of "the former things".

    "And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold the tebernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

    And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away." (Rev. 21;3,4)


    The God of resurrection is branching over every obstacle and over every barrier to His eternal plan. While there are no doubt bad things that must occur until that time, God is sure to eternally prevail.

    The death of Christ was a great mistake, tragedy, crime, awful wrong doing at the hands of evil men. But it was followed by His victorious resurrection. So God is a God of conquering all opposition and death. His love is not extinguished though there are strong setbacks of opposing forces that seem to win the day.
  6. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    30 Jan '17 21:35
    Originally posted by chaney3
    One more question, if allowed.

    If an 18 year old Jew, who did not yet believe in Jesus, got immediately killed by Nazis, is his destiny hell?

    Meaning, did the Nazi's free will indirectly send the Jews to an eternity in hell, by stripping the Jews of an opportunity to know Jesus?
    I do not know what will happen to that 18 year old. However, in principle I see a God Who is Just and infinite in wisdom and knowledge.

    In chapter 18 of Genesis Abraham presses God over and over again about the impending judgment of Sodom. He ventures boldly to challenge God as to whether the worthy and righteous will be punished along with the wicked.

    Now this is not a story about New Testament eternal redemption. But it is a window into the nature of God omniscience and understanding of all human circumstances. And I agree with Abraham's underlying hope as he challenges God -

    " Far be it from You to do such a thing to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You!

    Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?

    And Jehovah said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place for their sake." (Gen. 18:25,26)


    I have decided that God is perfect. I have made the decision to believe that it would be far from the Judge of all the earth to err in judgment.

    This is not an attempt to superimpose all of the details of that story onto the situation of the Jews during Hitler's holocaust.

    I notice also that in the book of Jonah the prophet actually wanted God to judge harshly the enemies of Israel in Nineveh. And Jonah was actually disgusted when he found out the city repented at his preaching.

    The book closes with a significant sentence showing God's reluctance to have to judge a people. And God is aware of the exact number of people in the city who should be exempted from the punishment.

    God scolds his vengeful prophet and reveals that merciful side of His character.

    " And I, should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot discern between their right hand and their left, ... " (Jonah 4:11)


    You and I could not be aware of the number of people who should be exempted from judgment. But the omniscient God had the count - "more than a hundred and twenty thousand people ..." .

    Perhaps something like this is the case with the millions of Jews who lost their lives in the Holocaust. But rigorously, at least, I have no specific answer on a case by case way.

    What I expect is that mankind will be astounded at the end by a God who is in every way ultimate and eternal - without limitation or error. I expect that we will be astounded that He knows how to be God.
  7. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86285
    31 Jan '17 04:001 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]
    The bible is so full of embarrassing contradictions and acts of divine monstrosity that I thought you might rather like to re-write it and take all that unpalatable stuff out. You could even put some stuff in about the trinity.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    - Ghost of a Duke


    Well, maybe you're right. I s ...[text shortened]... ed about ?

    Is the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God one of the two worst contradictions for you?[/b]
    There are contradictions in the the interpretations of Biblical scripture; especially yours.
  8. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    31 Jan '17 04:272 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    There are contradictions in the the interpretations of Biblical scripture; especially yours.
    Over the past many years I have written several times probably that I do not believe that the Bible can be 100% systematized. Paradoxes, maybe even contradictions at least appear to exist.

    Our growth in experience with God answers many of these.

    And I do not believe all my interpretations are infallible.
    Many of them are better than yours though, especially on the Father being God, the Son being God, and the Holy Spirit being God and the plural pronouns "Us" and "We" mysteriously being applied to the ________s of the Father and Son.
  9. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86285
    31 Jan '17 05:03
    Originally posted by sonship
    Over the past many years I have written several times probably that I do not believe that the Bible can be 100% systematized. Paradoxes, maybe even contradictions at least appear to exist.

    Our growth in experience with God answers many of these.

    And I do not believe all my interpretations are infallible.
    Many of them are better than yours though, e ...[text shortened]... [b]"Us"
    and "We" mysteriously being applied to the ________s of the Father and Son.[/b]
    Your belief in the trinity is neither a paradox, a contradiction, nor is it strange.

    Your belief that their are people on other worlds witnessing the lost being hung in chains of eternal punishment as a warning to them, is neither a paradox nor a contradiction, but it is very strange.

    Your belief that God has created a place of unimaginable, unjustified horror, especially for the detainment and eternal torture of unbelievers who may have done nothing obviously wrong in their entire lives, other than be born into sin, is a contradiction with the entire premise that god is love.

    To entertain this belief and hold it as an example of Jesus' "perfect justice", to accept that Jesus will be spectating this apocalyptic holocaust, this eternal genocide, is a contradiction.

    Furthermore it is strange and frankly more than a little disturbing that you are comfortable with this.
  10. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    California
    Joined
    21 May '03
    Moves
    223256
    31 Jan '17 05:38
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]
    The bible is so full of embarrassing contradictions and acts of divine monstrosity that I thought you might rather like to re-write it and take all that unpalatable stuff out. You could even put some stuff in about the trinity.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    - Ghost of a Duke


    Well, maybe you're right. I s ...[text shortened]... ed about ?

    Is the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God one of the two worst contradictions for you?[/b]
    There are no contradictions, errors, or gray areas in the word of God.
  11. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86285
    31 Jan '17 05:51
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    There are no contradictions, errors, or gray areas in the word of God.
    No grey areas?
    Everything is crystal clear to you?
  12. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    31 Jan '17 06:19
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    There are no contradictions, errors, or gray areas in the word of God.
    People who declare this are pointing up at the thing nailed to the mast and saying 'They are my underpants", LITERALLY.
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Dukeonline
    A Spirited Misfit
    in London
    Joined
    14 Mar '15
    Moves
    8503
    31 Jan '17 11:24
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]
    The bible is so full of embarrassing contradictions and acts of divine monstrosity that I thought you might rather like to re-write it and take all that unpalatable stuff out. You could even put some stuff in about the trinity.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    - Ghost of a Duke


    Well, maybe you're right. I s ...[text shortened]... ed about ?

    Is the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God one of the two worst contradictions for you?[/b]
    Firstly, well done for going out on a limb. (Though it is noted you asked for 2 example of contradictions rather than the more discombobulating divine acts of monstrosity).

    I feel we have been down this path before and your call for my 2 most problematic contradictions will most probably be anticipated and bated away with explanations well used. - So instead I'll try to be a little more unexpected in the examples tendered:

    1. In Leviticus we have God departing laws that He calls 'everlasting' How does this stack up with 'for if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second'? —Heb 8:7
    What are we seeing here sonship, God changing his mind, God revealing imperfections, the divine ability to cause fault?......Or are we just seeing a biblical contradiction?

    2. 'For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'. Romans 3:23
    'There was a man…who's name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright.' Job 1:1
    Is this not a clear contradiction? If all are sinners, how did Job come to be perfect?
  14. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    31 Jan '17 11:40
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    There are no contradictions, errors, or gray areas in the word of God.
    The problem with claims like this is that 'the word of God' is a non-existent entity. If I point out errors in my copy of the Bible you will announce that either it was translated wrong, or I am interpreting it wrong. After some discussion it will turn out that 'the word of God' is not the text in my copy of the Bible but some hypothetical interpretation in which all contradictions, errors or gray areas have been smoothed out.
  15. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8553
    31 Jan '17 15:57
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Firstly, well done for going out on a limb. (Though it is noted you asked for 2 example of contradictions rather than the more discombobulating divine acts of monstrosity).


    I've been away from the threads, so please excuse me if my posting this morning was not preceded by a thorough review of all exchanges leading up to this point.

    I'm pressed for time today and continuity may be a problem.


    I feel we have been down this path before and your call for my 2 most problematic contradictions will most probably be anticipated and bated away with explanations well used. - So instead I'll try to be a little more unexpected in the examples tendered:


    Believe it or not I am genuinely interested in a search for the truth.
    I might even supply some very difficult paradoxes in Scripture for me to reconcile.

    You see, I never felt to stop cold in my tracks in reading the Bible and say "That's it! I can't take anymore of these difficulties." For some reason since about 1971 I have never come accross an absolutely impassible difficulty to my faith in Christ or love for the Scriptures.

    To say that, is to admit that I am so given to the love of Scripture and of Scripture's God,
    I am effectively "ruined" for any kind of Atheism, though a case here or there I might admit they may seemed to have.

    I am biased. I love Jesus Christ. This is kind of like someone pointing out flaws with one's husband or wife. The spouse is not likely to adopt any hating attitude towards the love of his or her life.


    1. In Leviticus we have God departing laws that He calls 'everlasting' How does this stack up with 'for if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second'? —Heb 8:7


    That's a good question that I need more time than I have now to contemplate.
    I'll get back to you with my viewpoint.



    What are we seeing here sonship, God changing his mind, God revealing imperfections, the divine ability to cause fault?......Or are we just seeing a biblical contradiction?


    Fault is still seen, exposed and judged by God.

    In brief - I think what we are seeing that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the purpose of the law of God.

    Romans 10:4 says :

    "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes."


    The eternal purpose of securing a righteousness before God has found its conclusion in Jesus Christ. He said He came not to abolish but to fulfill.

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. " (Matt. 5:17)



    Take for example the instance of the woman caught in adultery in John 8. The law said that with the witnesses she should be stoned. That was God finding fault and assigning a penalty.

    Now Jesus as the Son of God comes and brightens the light. He makes the light more penetrating. He makes the light pierce deeper. How does He do this?

    He says that the one who has no sin should be the first to cast a stone at the adulterous woman. Beginning with the oldest and latter with the young and impetuous they all slinked away in conviction and embarrassment. Their own consciences convicted them in the presence of Jesus that they TOO were as guilty as she.

    No one was left who felt qualified to execute the woman.

    Did Jesus abolish the law there? No. He made it more penetrating, more exposing, more convicting. He came to complete its job. He heightened the penetrating power of the Old Covenant.

    Now to be fair Christ did underplay some of the ritual aspects and ceremonial aspects of the law. But the moral aspect He uplifted, and made more penetrating down into a deeper part of man's being.

    You have heard that it was said by the ancients ...... But I say to you ....."

    He did the same eternally assigned work of the law of Moses yet with greater conviction and also with a greater atoning sacrifice of Himself, to propitiate for sins.

    And I will have to continue latter. But in this way the Apostle Paul says that the law of Moses was like a tutor or child-conductor leading God's people to a deeper lesson in new covenant grace.

    " So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith. But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor." (Gal. 3:24,25)


    The eternal God is exceedingly profound. And His revelation of Himself and His eternal purpose is revealed progressively in the Bible.

    Look at it through this analogy:

    A mother tells a baby to pick up his food with fingers and eat it.
    Latter she says for the young child to use a spoon.
    Latter still she tells the youngster to use a fork.

    Her heart is revealed progressively. And the child grows in instruction.
Back to Top