Originally posted by wolfgang59Two big questions, especially this late at night 🙂
what's the point for Christians?
why was Jesus baptised?
Short answers (from the Catholic perspective):
Baptism is what makes one a Christian. "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [viz., the church]." (John 3:5--any statement that Jesus starts with "Amen, amen I say to thee..." gets taken pretty much literally by the Church.) Baptism removes all sin, original and actual, and remits all punishment for sin incurred up till then. If you were to be validly baptized and died immediately afterward (without committing any further sins), you'd go straight to heaven. This is one reason early Christians sometimes postponed receiving baptism until they were at the point of death.
And Jesus had Himself baptized as an example to us, not because He needed it (He was perfectly sinless).
Originally posted by pyxelated"as an example" ? that just doesnt make sense - what was he doing role-play?
Two big questions, especially this late at night 🙂
Short answers (from the Catholic perspective):
Baptism is what makes one a Christian. "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [viz., the church]." (John 3:5--any statement that Jesus starts with "Amen, amen I say to t ...[text shortened]... Himself baptized as an example to us, not because He needed it (He was perfectly sinless).
seems to me there is a conflict between Jesus being baptised and Jesus being without sin.
more evidence that early writers of the NT couldny agree on just how godly they wanted him.
Originally posted by wolfgang59He was setting a good example as a father would do for a child.
"as an example" ? that just doesnt make sense - what was he doing role-play?
seems to me there is a conflict between Jesus being baptised and Jesus being without sin.
more evidence that early writers of the NT couldny agree on just how godly they wanted him.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59Well, to jump in for pyxelated and clarify the Church's position: Jesus' baptism was not the same as the Christian baptism practiced by later Christian disciples nor were any of the baptisms performed by the apostles until Jesus' death and the institution of the Church and sacraments. Christian baptism as a sacrament makes sense only in the light of Jesus' death and resurrection (Paul says that Christians are baptised into his death through baptism). Until then, baptism was simply a symbolic demonstration of penitence.
"as an example" ? that just doesnt make sense - what was he doing role-play?
seems to me there is a conflict between Jesus being baptised and Jesus being without sin.
more evidence that early writers of the NT couldny agree on just how godly they wanted him.
Christ's baptism specifically however was simply a demonstration of his divine sonship, as the Holy Spirit descends on him and God claims his as his son. The Church teaches that Christ was free from all sin and all tendency to sin. He had no need of penitential baptism nor would he have any need of sacramental baptism.
Originally posted by Conrau KThanks, Conrau, I'm afraid I wasn't very clear about that.
Well, to jump in for pyxelated and clarify the Church's position: Jesus' baptism was not the same as the Christian baptism practiced by later Christian disciples nor were any of the baptisms performed by the apostles until Jesus' death and the institution of the Church and sacraments. Christian baptism as a sacrament makes sense only in the light of Jesus' ...[text shortened]... n. He had no need of penitential baptism nor would he have any need of sacramental baptism.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59The point for Christians is well covered elsewhere. I thought baptism was consistent with certain Jewish rites and John the Baptist emphasized it as the central rite of his messianic movement. In my view, Jesus underwent the rite as a Jew and would have understood it that way. His doing it under John the Baptists' aegis would have signaled that Jesus was supportive of the imminent-messiah view.
what's the point for Christians?
why was Jesus baptised?
Originally posted by JS357Well that makes more sense than "setting a good example".
The point for Christians is well covered elsewhere. I thought baptism was consistent with certain Jewish rites and John the Baptist emphasized it as the central rite of his messianic movement. In my view, Jesus underwent the rite as a Jew and would have understood it that way. His doing it under John the Baptists' aegis would have signaled that Jesus was supportive of the imminent-messiah view.
It just seems to me (from the very little I know of the bible) that Jesus is described as two different people. There is the man of the people (shepherds at his birth, baptism by john, getting married (?) then there is the King/Son of God Jesus who has Kings attend his birth and is free from sin.
Were there two contrary views of Jesus ... perhaps there still are?
Originally posted by wolfgang59
Well that makes more sense than "setting a good example".
Well, hey, I thought it was sufficient at the time 🙂 But clearly I left quite a bit out, and I'm glad Conrau jumped in... I would have covered most of the points he did, but not nearly as well. Sorry about that.
It just seems to me (from the very little I know of the bible) that Jesus is described as two different people. There is the man of the people (shepherds at his birth, baptism by john, getting married (?) then there is the King/Son of God Jesus who has Kings attend his birth and is free from sin.
Jesus is far from the easiest person in the world to understand. He is unique, not only in person but in His nature(s), which He has one more of than the rest of us: there is Jesus-as-man and Jesus-as-God. And remember:
1) He is the champion of the poor and needy against the rich of this world (and not only those rich in money), and He is poor himself. And all this is by choice; He is under no external compulsion whatever.
2) He is completely without sin, including the sins of pride, hypocrisy, vanity, etc. What would you expect a life completely without fault or blame to look like when seen from the outside? A really completely good person would not necessarily stand out from the crowd.
3) As God, he is completely in charge of any siituation he finds himself in, and nothing can happen to him that He does not allow, and has not foreseen.
Were there two contrary views of Jesus ... perhaps there still are?
When you're on the outside looking in, with just the book to go by, it certainly can seem so. It did to me, before I had the Church as a guide--which is not really surprising, when you think about it, since the claim is that Jesus was fully God and at the same time fully man. That isn't something that you should expect to be able to understand on your own, without a little help 🙂 Not surprising that people who don't accept the claims reject the book.
This is just the broadest sort of answer, without a whole lot to back it up. Why God chose to come to earth exactly as He did is a far larger question than can be answered in a few dozen pages of text, never mind on a game forum. The subject is bigger than the world, so to speak, and many books have been written on practically every sentence I've written above, so that's about as well as I can do in the time that I have. Conrau K can certainly do better; his signal-to-noise ratio seems to be higher than mine. Maybe he'll jump in here again 🙂
Originally posted by wolfgang59Without going into all these theological answers to all the reasons Jesus
Well that makes more sense than "setting a good example".
It just seems to me (from the very little I know of the bible) that Jesus is described as two different people. There is the man of the people (shepherds at his birth, baptism by john, getting married (?) then there is the King/Son of God Jesus who has Kings attend his birth and is free from sin.
Were there two contrary views of Jesus ... perhaps there still are?
was baptized in fulfilling the law, the main point you should reckonize is
that He was baptized and expected others to be baptized also. For He
told His disciples, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on
earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in
the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them
to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even
to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20 NASB) So if you want to be
a follower of Jesus, you should be baptized just as He was baptized.