1. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 15:14
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    All of those. Why do you want to make these distinctions ? It is easier to forgive someone you love then someone you dislike. Is that the heart of your question ?
    Yes, wasn't that obvious? If you have a close relationship of whatever form with someone then the desire to continue that relationship will drive you to forgive most things readily.
  2. Felicific Forest
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    20 Feb '07 15:37
    Originally posted by Ian68
    Yes, wasn't that obvious? If you have a close relationship of whatever form with someone then the desire to continue that relationship will drive you to forgive most things readily.
    The subject of this thread deals with all of the instances you've mentioned.
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    20 Feb '07 16:01
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Can you give an example of all four situations you describe ? ... and do you think that in this context being "RATIONAL" and being "LOGICAL" has exactly the same meaning ?
    I'll try: Consider that Jimmy has killed my cat.

    illogical forgiveness: I have nothing to gain from forgiveness, my cat is still dead and Jimmy is unrepentent. I forgive him for no logical reason.

    logical forgiveness: Jimmy is repentent and because I believe he expresses a desire to end any conflict between us and since I have neither the time nor resources to continue a conflict out of choice, I forgive him.

    illogical non-forgiveness: Jimmy is repentent as above, but I wish to waste time and effort by holding a grudge indefinitely.

    logical non-forgiveness: Jimmy is unrepentant and as such deserves only my contempt. I withhold forgiveness.

    As to 'rational' and 'logical' being synonymous in this context, I'd say yes, but under the provisio that we are using logical in a very loose sense.
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    20 Feb '07 17:38
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Kirk: "It goes against reason and logic for me personally"

    Does foregiving go against rationality stating that it goes against reason and logic ? In other words: Is forgiving "irrational" ?
    It certainly goes against our impulses. So on some level forgiveness may require more reason and rationality.
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    22 Feb '07 05:011 edit
    I notice that nobody has bothered to define “forgiveness.”

    Some years ago, someone advised me that I had a problem with forgiveness that I ought to take a look at. I realized, when I really looked at it, that I really didn’t know exactly what the word meant. I started reading books, essays—everyone seemed to have a different understanding of what it meant...

    In the NT, the Greek word most often translated as forgiveness is aphiemi, which means to let go, to release, to set free—in other Greek writings, it can even mean divorce. apoluo is the word next most often rendered as forgiveness, and has similar meanings, with the added connotation of “throwing forth” (and is, in context, also translated as “divorce” ).

    So, to pick one word, forgiveness means to release. Release of enmity, say. Letting go of anger, or a grudge, or your right to “get even.” Reconciliation is a whole other matter, and may or may not be desirable or possible. Whether or not the forgiveness is communicated, and whether it is wise to do so, is also another question.

    Forgiveness may really have little to do with the other person at all. Suppose, for example, that someone says they forgive you for something about which, upon honest examination, you do not judge yourself guilty, or in need of forgiveness, at all. It still may be a “releasing” that is necessary for that person’s well-being. So, perhaps you just let it be.

    But if forgiveness is release of attitudes that cause destructive inner turmoil, it is certainly rational to “let it go.” In Buddhist jargon, the “first noble truth” is that in life there is anguish (suffering). The “second noble truth” is that anguish is ultimately caused by clinging, clutching, grasping. The “third noble truth” is that there is a way to escape anguish. The “fourth noble truth” is that the way to escape anguish is following the eightfold path—which is too many “folds” for me to ever keep track of. But, if forgiveness means exactly the opposite of clinging/clutching/grasping, then the radicality of the Christian concept certainly has a kind of “Zen” ring to it.

    From that perspective (which is mine), the discipline of forgiveness is the discipline of letting go of whatever it is you clutch at (or that seems to clutch at you) that causes anguish—and may lead you to think that you can escape from that anguish by imposing it on someone else. Jesus’ message (in part)—and the Buddha’s too (in part)—was that God (or the Tao or the universe, in the Buddhist view) does not cling to your errors and failures (moral or otherwise: the real, literal meaning of the word “sin” ), nor insist that you do either.

    The discipline of forgiveness does not mean that I will not protect myself, or those in my care, from the actions of others. It simply means that I will not participate in the cycle of anguish (which I call the “soap opera” ), my own or another’s—neither to make another’s my own, nor to lay my own on another, nor to insist to myself that I cling to my own. Ivanhoe knows as well as anyone that my discipline is not perfect. As Ivanhoe also knows, sinking into the anguish of despair at failure is, in a sense, the worse sin: because it keeps you in the cycle. Perfectionism is, in either Christian or Buddhist terms, a kind of “faithlessness.”

    So, for me, based on my understanding of the term, forgiveness is eminently rational—passivity or response in the face of another’s actions, or maintaining a relationship despite another’actions, are totally different matters.
  6. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    22 Feb '07 06:18
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Do you believe that the IPD correctly captures the essence of most (all?) life situations calling for forgiveness?
    I don't know what it means to have a situation "calling for forgiveness".
  7. Standard memberAcemaster
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    24 Feb '07 06:22
    Originally posted by stocken
    Now, that is pure wisdom, right there. Have a rec. 🙂
    I must agree (can you believe it!!?). Have another rec 🙂
  8. Felicific Forest
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    24 Feb '07 15:18
    Originally posted by vistesd
    I notice that nobody has bothered to define “forgiveness.”

    Some years ago, someone advised me that I had a problem with forgiveness that I ought to take a look at. I realized, when I really looked at it, that I really didn’t know exactly what the word meant. I started reading books, essays—everyone seemed to have a different understanding of what it m ...[text shortened]... s actions, or maintaining a relationship despite another’actions, are totally different matters.
    Thanks for this very clear little essay, Vistesd

    .... and I just knew you would be back some day ..... Good to have you here at the RHP Forums .... 😉
  9. Felicific Forest
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    24 Feb '07 15:19
    Originally posted by Starrman
    I'll try: Consider that Jimmy has killed my cat.

    illogical forgiveness: I have nothing to gain from forgiveness, my cat is still dead and Jimmy is unrepentent. I forgive him for no logical reason.

    logical forgiveness: Jimmy is repentent and because I believe he expresses a desire to end any conflict between us and since I have neither the time nor r ...[text shortened]...
    , I'd say yes, but under the provisio that we are using logical in a very loose sense.[/b]
    Please read Vistesd's post on the matter.
  10. Joined
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    24 Feb '07 17:37
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Please read Vistesd's post on the matter.
    I disagree with his assumption that it is rational to 'let it go'.
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    24 Feb '07 17:404 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Is the act of forgiveness a rational or (?) logical act from the perspective of your own convictions, religious or secular ? Can you give an explanation or reasons for your stance ?
    That is an interesting question.

    For me the power to forgive is mostly derived from that fact that I am deeply aware of how much I have been forgiven by God.

    When I didn't think anyone knew or anyone saw my evil it did not matter. When I became aware that my entire life is laid totally transparent to the eyes of God, then I appreciated the forgiveness He offered me.

    Trangressions are ultimately all against God. When God says "Vengence is Mine. I will repay, " it is very serious. There is a day of reckoning. There is a day of setting things straight. Only the foolish think anyone can get away forever with anything.

    When Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" at His crucifixion I think He meant that the people did nor realize that their wrong doing was against God.

    We sin and do not realize what we are doing in this sense. We do not realize that our trangression, our iniquity, is ultimately against God. "They do not know what they are doing."

    When you know that you have been forgiven much you can forgive much. When you know that the real offense is against God Himself and only secondarily against you, you also are more willing to forgive.

    But forgiveness for me, in many instances, requires the empowering of Christ. I cannot in myself muster the strength to forgive and forget the offense. I utter that I forgive someone from my heart, as I have been taught by Jesus, and by faith Christ empowers me to forgive.
  12. Felicific Forest
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    24 Feb '07 17:515 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    That is an interesting question.

    For me the power to forgive is mostly derived from that fact that I am deeply aware of how much I have been forgiven by God.

    When I didn't think anyone knew or anyone saw my evil it did not matter. When I became aware that my entire life is laid totally transparent to the eyes of God, then I appreciated the forgiv rom my heart, as I have been taught by Jesus, and by faith Christ empowers me to forgive.
    Right ! I would like to add that the true interpretation of Christ's teachings of Love, Truth and Justice always encourages us to act rationally, also in this regard.
  13. Joined
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    24 Feb '07 18:011 edit
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Right ! I would like to add that the true interpretation of Christ's teachings of Love, Truth and Justice always encourages us to act rationally, also in this regard.
    The delaying of justice encourages the fool to continue sinning.

    "Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the children of men is fully set within them to do evil." (Ecc. 8:11)

    The foolish think they can say whatever they like to say. They think they can do whatever they like to do. Apparently life goes on as usual. The fool does not realize that he is accumulating deeds for which he will one day give an account to God.

    To take advantage of the forgiveness offered in the redemption of Christ, to me, is extremely rational. It makes perfect sense.
  14. Felicific Forest
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    24 Feb '07 19:581 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The delaying of justice encourages the fool to continue sinning.

    [b]"Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the children of men is fully set within them to do evil." (Ecc. 8:11)


    The foolish think they can say whatever they like to say. They think they can do whatever they like to do. Apparently in the redemption of Christ, to me, is extremely rational. It makes perfect sense.[/b]
    Agreed.
  15. Hmmm . . .
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    26 Feb '07 03:58
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Thanks for this very clear little essay, Vistesd

    .... and I just knew you would be back some day ..... Good to have you here at the RHP Forums .... 😉
    I hate it when you're right! 😉 Thanks for the welcome back.
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