Belief and Rejection

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:44-50 KJV)

Points that one can glean from the above passage:

1. To believe in Christ means to believe in God as well.

2. When Christ use the word 'believe'. He means believing in his words / teachings.

3. If someone rejects Christ, that person does not receive his words or teachings

4. God will judge all those who do not receive the words of Christ

5. The commandments of Christ = The commandments of God

6. Obedience to the commandments of God which comes through Christ is what gives life everlasting.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[i][b]Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the wo ...[text shortened]... Obedience to the commandments of God which comes through Christ is what gives life everlasting.

The words of Christ are only recorded in the bible. What of those who do not view the bible as credible or reliable, and hence do not contain the words of Christ? What evidence do we have that the bible is not a work of fiction, written by a number of human authors. (And let's get real, that's the most likely scenario).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
The words of Christ are only recorded in the bible. What of those who do not view the bible as credible or reliable, and hence do not contain the words of Christ? What evidence do we have that the bible is not a work of fiction, written by a number of human authors. (And let's get real, that's the most likely scenario).

One mans likely scenario is another man unlikely scenario.

So let every man decide for himself who or what he is going to follow. In the end, the Bible speaks of those you describe and their fate and judgment is going to be fair:

Originally posted by Rajk999
One mans likely scenario is another man unlikely scenario.

So let every man decide for himself who or what he is going to follow. In the end, the Bible speaks of those you describe and their fate and judgment is going to be fair:

If Ghost of a Duke (atheist) can get to the Kingdom of God (your view) by following the teachings of the Bible, does Ghost need to actually believe that any of that is real? Is 'belief' necessary?

Maybe you are implying that if he follows the teachings, that...hint, hint, he must be a believer, despite what he claims.

Originally posted by chaney3
If Ghost of a Duke (atheist) can get to the Kingdom of God (your view) by following the teachings of the Bible, does Ghost need to actually believe that any of that is real? Is 'belief' necessary?

Maybe you are implying that if he follows the teachings, that...hint, hint, he must be a believer, despite what he claims.

Correct.

There are people who can claim to believe until they are blue in the face, but that is worthless without actually demonstrating that they do in fact believe. The only way to do that is to obey Christ.

Then there are those who live the Christlike lives but have no affiliation to any religion.

God is smart. They cannot fool him.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
The words of Christ are only recorded in the bible. What of those who do not view the bible as credible or reliable, and hence do not contain the words of Christ? What evidence do we have that the bible is not a work of fiction, written by a number of human authors. (And let's get real, that's the most likely scenario).

For that matter what of those Jews and Muslims who accept the Bible but not the New Testament? It is not necessary to be an atheist or even to reject the Old Testament to challenge Paul's invented new religion. (And let's face it, many monotheists have a lot of trouble with Paul's invention.).

Originally posted by Rajk999
Correct.

There are people who can claim to believe until they are blue in the face, but that is worthless without actually demonstrating that they do in fact believe. The only way to do that is to obey Christ.

Then there are those who live the Christlike lives but have no affiliation to any religion.

God is smart. They cannot fool him.

And then there are those who claim to believe, but do not follow ALL of Christ's teachings. They go so far as to claim to know and tell others what THEY need to do to serve God, and yet they continually attack their Christian brothers and refuse to show love for them, as Christ commanded. Their philosophy is "Do as I say, not as I do." They claim their religion is only between them and God, and yet they denigrate and denunciate others for what they assume is their relationship with God. They say their Christian walk is private, but they judge others on their walk with Christ, based on their own assumptions. This is certainly not "showing love for their Christian brothers". They accuse others of "cherry-picking" the Bible and yet, they are equally guilty of the same, if not more so. Their philosophy is "Do as I say, not as I do." They assume that what they do is sufficient, and yet they demean others for not following what they say others should do, which often has no connection to what they actually do. Their business is judging, and so they break another of Christ's commandments. But they tell others they are condemned for not following Christ's commandments. Their philosophy is "Do as I say, not as I do."

Originally posted by Rajk999
One mans likely scenario is another man unlikely scenario.

So let every man decide for himself who or what he is going to follow. In the end, the Bible speaks of those you describe and their fate and judgment is going to be fair:

Here is my problem with all of that:

So a religion starts out in a desert tribe, and they tell each other they are the chosen ones. Well and good.

Then a few thou later, JC comes along, Paul kidnaps it all, makes miracles seemingly, since to make a religion popular in Rome it REQUIRES miracles, so BOING, here are miracles.

Now the thing is, this alleged god wants a religion that will capture the hearts of all mankind, which has been said a number of times in your bible.

So instead of a god just addressing every human on Earth in their own language, it is up to an obscure desert tribe to bring this about for the entire planet.

And of course, unbeknownst to them, there are millions of people already distributed all around the planet and even today 2000 odd years after JC and 4000 or more odd years since Judaism started, there are people who have lived the entire time never hearing this wonderful news.

If it was so wonderful, a god should have made it its job to tell every human on Earth.

Instead we get fairy tales written by men who, after all was said and done, were in it simply to control people, build up a political power base, and just SO conveniently, the top levels of said religions just HAPPEN to occupy the best houses, get the best food, the best blankets and so forth.

My how CONVENIENT it is the upper ranks that get all these benefits while the common man still grovels trying to grow food for his family.

To me that smells badly of just humans perpetrating a fraud.

To me, a god would never set up a hierarchical religion. It would just go, 'OK HUMANS" this is how it is, yes you have free will but don't get too cute with it.

AND OF COURSE your answer will be an attack, So now you know the mind of god?

Pardon me. God.

Instead of actually taking in what I just said you will just attack the messenger.