1. Standard memberYuga
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    17 Feb '07 16:37
    If Jesus, his disciples, and essentially the Bible, were all false, then there has never been a greater travesty.

    Why would adherence to this principle make me a blind believer?
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    17 Feb '07 18:34
    Originally posted by Yuga
    If Jesus, his disciples, and essentially the Bible, were all false, then there has never been a greater travesty.

    Why would adherence to this principle make me a blind believer?
    Sure, there have equal or greater travesties. Christianity isn't the only major religion, you know.
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    17 Feb '07 18:36
    Originally posted by Yuga
    If Jesus, his disciples, and essentially the Bible, were all false, then there has never been a greater travesty.

    Why would adherence to this principle make me a blind believer?
    Faith is belief without evidence. Blind belief is belief that ignores contrary evidence. Do you fall into the latter category?
  4. Standard memberYuga
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    17 Feb '07 19:471 edit
    Originally posted by hoven5th
    Sure, there have equal or greater travesties. Christianity isn't the only major religion, you know.
    I understand that the major religions have many of the same fundamental principles. But Christianity is the most compelling to me.

    Perhaps there have been greater travesties. In any case, the implications of belief are of great magnitude; one’s beliefs affect how one lives and one’s afterlife, if that exists.
  5. Standard memberYuga
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    17 Feb '07 19:591 edit
    Originally posted by hoven5th
    Faith is belief without evidence. Blind belief is belief that ignores contrary evidence. Do you fall into the latter category?
    Here is my view regarding Christianity, so you may judge for yourself.

    By rejecting Christ, one is claiming that Christ, his disciples, and his followers all deceivers and the Bible false. If this is the case, then the magnitude of this lie has been enormously profound. Think of all the wars, persecution and martyrs. Think of all the people who believe in Him. Consider all of the good works that have been done in his name.

    By accepting Christ, one is acknowledging divine intervention. One is acknowledging that although bad works have been done in the name of Christ, calling oneself and one’s actions Christian does not make them Christian. Being a Christian requires one to believe that Jesus Christ is God, adhere to the principles Christ’s advocates, living a Christian life.

    [C. S.] Lewis said there are three options:

    1. Jesus was telling falsehoods and knew it, and so he was a liar.
    2. Jesus was telling falsehoods but believed he was telling the truth, and so he was insane.
    3. Jesus was telling the truth, and so he was divine. (wikipedia, trilemma)

    Lewis’s trilemma is “based on Jesus' own words [as according to the Bible], not the words of others.” (wikipedia, trilemma) I cannot fathom how the trilemma is overly simplistic.

    There is not a middle ground here; one either believes in Christ, or chooses not to believe in Him. Choosing to reject or accept Christ is not intellectually easy for me. I’m not saying the believers or non-believers are correct; I do not know – how can anybody know? What is the evidence supporting and detracting from Christianity? The Bible presents some very compelling evidence supporting Christianity.
  6. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    18 Feb '07 07:53
    Originally posted by Yuga
    The Bible presents some very compelling evidence supporting Christianity.
    Apart from the logical contradictions and the lack of internal consistency.
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    18 Feb '07 08:42
    If you want to know the real Jesus and what he really said or did go read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
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    18 Feb '07 08:56
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Apart from the logical contradictions and the lack of internal consistency.
    list off some of the inconsistencies.. please, for me. As someone who has read the Bible, studies it frequently since he was a teen, and love God more every day, I would love to know what people think.
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    18 Feb '07 09:06
    If Jesus was a liar, seeing as he had a lot of enemies who were big in Israel in those days, His body would have been produced a long time ago, when he died and was resurrected.

    If Jesus was a liar, there would not have been over 500 eyewitnesses after His death, and His disciples would not have died for Him.

    If Jesus was a liar, the religion created by His followers would have fizzled out, especially in the face of the christian persecutions that went on for hundreds of years in Europe. (during which Christianity flourished).

    The thing about all this is that these are not even biblically supported. This is just history. If Jesus, the man that did live, was a liar, He fooled a lot of people, and us christians are doomed.
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    18 Feb '07 09:21
    Originally posted by jonesyuno34
    If Jesus was a liar, seeing as he had a lot of enemies who were big in Israel in those days, His body would have been produced a long time ago, when he died and was resurrected.

    If Jesus was a liar, there would not have been over 500 eyewitnesses after His death, and His disciples would not have died for Him.

    If Jesus was a liar, the religion cre ...[text shortened]... sus, the man that did live, was a liar, He fooled a lot of people, and us christians are doomed.
    Jesus was not a liar. But is what in your hand today is what Jesus really did or say. If you really searched for the truth, you will find that at some point of time , exactly 325, jesus was elected as GOD and the Christianity you know is formed. Before that there was no Christianity and Jesus was not GOD. The most important thing Jesus himself didn't say he is GOD , talk about salvation, or ask you to belive so.

    If you care go read this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

    The four Gospels you belive in are not the only writing from the early age of Christianity. And the Church was the only authority in the old days to select what you now bleive. So if the Church wanted you to belive that Jesus is GOD it was an easy Job.

    You might not accept what I said, but blind faith not always give salvation.
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    20 Feb '07 05:52
    Originally posted by Yuga
    Here is my view regarding Christianity, so you may judge for yourself.

    By rejecting Christ, one is claiming that Christ, his disciples, and his followers all deceivers and the Bible false. If this is the case, then the magnitude of this lie has been enormously profound. Think of all the wars, persecution and martyrs. Think of all the people who believe in ...[text shortened]... g from Christianity? The Bible presents some very compelling evidence supporting Christianity.
    By rejecting Christ, one is claiming that Christ, his disciples, and his followers all deceivers

    Not true. They could be deluded.
  12. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    20 Feb '07 05:56
    Originally posted by jonesyuno34
    If Jesus was a liar, seeing as he had a lot of enemies who were big in Israel in those days, His body would have been produced a long time ago, when he died and was resurrected.

    If Jesus was a liar, there would not have been over 500 eyewitnesses after His death, and His disciples would not have died for Him.

    If Jesus was a liar, the religion cre ...[text shortened]... sus, the man that did live, was a liar, He fooled a lot of people, and us christians are doomed.
    If Jesus was a liar, seeing as he had a lot of enemies who were big in Israel in those days, His body would have been produced a long time ago, when he died and was resurrected.

    Unless the body had been lost or destroyed.

    If Jesus was a liar, there would not have been over 500 eyewitnesses after His death,

    Unless they were deluded or lying.

    and His disciples would not have died for Him

    Why not? How would they know he was lying? Even if they did maybe they felt the lie was worth dying for.

    If Jesus was a liar, the religion created by His followers would have fizzled out

    If Jesus was telling the truth, Islam is false, and therefore would have fizzled out by your logic.
  13. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    20 Feb '07 05:57
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Jesus was not a liar. But is what in your hand today is what Jesus really did or say. If you really searched for the truth, you will find that at some point of time , exactly 325, jesus was elected as GOD and the Christianity you know is formed. Before that there was no Christianity and Jesus was not GOD. The most important thing Jesus himself didn't say he ...[text shortened]... as an easy Job.

    You might not accept what I said, but blind faith not always give salvation.
    Jesus was not a liar

    How do you know? Met him, did you?
  14. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    20 Feb '07 06:00
    Originally posted by jonesyuno34
    list off some of the inconsistencies.. please, for me. As someone who has read the Bible, studies it frequently since he was a teen, and love God more every day, I would love to know what people think.
    Here are a few sites,

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
    http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_and_the_Bible
  15. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    20 Feb '07 06:01
    Originally posted by jonesyuno34
    If Jesus was a liar, seeing as he had a lot of enemies who were big in Israel in those days, His body would have been produced a long time ago, when he died and was resurrected.

    If Jesus was a liar, there would not have been over 500 eyewitnesses after His death, and His disciples would not have died for Him.

    If Jesus was a liar, the religion cre ...[text shortened]... sus, the man that did live, was a liar, He fooled a lot of people, and us christians are doomed.
    Not necessarily, to all of your points.
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