1. Cape Town
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    23 Aug '11 08:44
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Well yes I agree. But the [b]origin of their belief came about by believing in another man (unless god has spoken directly to them!). They then go on about their belief in god but never mention (because they themselves no longer neeed it) their initial belief in other people. One could call this gullibility.[/b]
    For many people, belief is taught to children by their parents, so in that case, I might agree with you. But for many, belief comes not so much as a result of trust, but rather after a trial. Someone tells you 'try praying', or 'try putting your faith in it' and you say 'well its worth the experiment, I have nothing to loose', and you try it out, have an emotional experience and get converted. But at no point do you directly put your complete trust in a person. Once you gain the belief, you then grab on to the first religion that helps you maintain that belief (for the reasons I listed earlier). Once again, trust is of little importance. Even the validity of the religion is of little importance except for a few core teachings that are necessary for the belief. Many people change denominations or even religions.

    What is interesting is theists understand the above processes quite well and deliberately exploit them to try and gain new converts. Theists try to use logic and theology to defend their beliefs from attack, but in general do not do to when trying to convert others. Instead they go for the emotional and try to get others to experiment.

    Most theists only really hold a tiny set of core beliefs, and the rest of what they claim to believe is really just scaffolding they erect to try and protect the core. They will quite readily change the scaffolding if doing so does not threaten the core.
  2. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 09:05
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.

    But belief in what?

    I can believe in a friend when they say they will pay me back a loan.

    I can believe a co-worker when they tell me how a job is to be done.

    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt ...[text shortened]... belief that some guys once upon a time hit upon some divine truth.

    Its not a belief in god.
    interesting point. why do you believe in a friend paying you back a loan?

    or let's up the ante: why do you believe a certain friend will never, ever backstab you and sleep with your wife for example?

    why would anyone believe their wife/ husband loves them?


    pretty much the same is my belief in god. it is comforting to me that there is something waiting for you after death. it brings an additional purpose.

    sure, i am not absurd to claim that it requires the same amount of faith to believe that the wife you've been married to for 40 years truly loves you than it is needed to believe in a supreme being. however humans don't use logic in all situations. it is part of being human i propose
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    23 Aug '11 09:13
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    interesting point. why do you believe in a friend paying you back a loan?

    or let's up the ante: why do you believe a certain friend will never, ever backstab you and sleep with your wife for example?

    why would anyone believe their wife/ husband loves them?


    pretty much the same is my belief in god. it is comforting to me that there is something w ...[text shortened]... being. however humans don't use logic in all situations. it is part of being human i propose
    The big difference is that I have met the people I believe in.
  4. Cape Town
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    23 Aug '11 09:40
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    The big difference is that I have met the people I believe in.
    Its not as big a difference as you may think. Nor is your belief any more justified.
    And when you, at some subconscious level, realise that someone you believe in, is not worthy of that belief (eg has betrayed you), do you continue to believe (for your own sanity), or do you accept the truth?
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    23 Aug '11 09:42
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    The big difference is that I have met the people I believe in.
    why is that a requirement?

    i am quite sure many husbands have met their best friends and can say without a doubt these best friends will never betray them. right until they find them schtooping the madam.


    i don't believe one could prove love. we experience it in different ways. you can know it if you have it but to see it in another is never 100% without doubt.
    i believe god exists. i have doubts, true. but i believe it. i may never be 100%, perhaps that is a failing of me. but i don't need proof. believing god is real is enough for me even if i never get to see him.
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    23 Aug '11 09:44
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Its not as big a difference as you may think. Nor is your belief any more justified.
    And when you, at some subconscious level, realise that someone you believe in, is not worthy of that belief (eg has betrayed you), do you continue to believe (for your own sanity), or do you accept the truth?
    i require a little clarification. what do you mean at the subconscious level? as in you suspect your best friend is shtooping your wife yet you haven't caught them?


    if that is what you mean, why would you do that to yourself? if neither sides have proof, why believe the worst?
  7. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
    rvsakhadeo
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    23 Aug '11 10:13
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    all beliefs are self destructive. the goal is to have none.
    I say that is a sweeping statement to make. One needs a set of beliefs to go through the daily routine let alone for higher aims like realising God. Do you not believe in the ability of science and technology to provide a car,a road,a traffic signal system to you to enable you to go to your job? Or do you go on checking up on the fundamentals at every step? Inherent beliefs are an essential part of our mental make up. An inbuilt software. And Faith is a belief which is an input after due deliberation on the part of the person concerned.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    23 Aug '11 10:15
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    No doubt most, if not all, Christians began believing becaus of someone telling them "This is so"--probably parents. But God gave us a wonderful organ called a brain, and as we grow older, we read things with discernment. We don't hat our parents for telling us there was a Santa Claus, and neither do we confuse a fictitous bearded elf with the King of K ...[text shortened]... od"--we believe in God, and we simply believe that those folks who told us were right 🙂
    But yet you can't separate your upbringing from your faith. They were just more effective than you first assumed. Their brainwashing worked perfectly in your case.

    You think it was free will that brought you to your present state but I can assure you it was no such thing, you were programmed to react exactly as you did.

    You and billions of people around the planet deluded by their forebearers.

    You are no different in that regard. The true path to intellectual freedom is shucking your early programming.

    If I can do it, anyone can. Some children have a built in sniffer of BS and I am thankful I was one of them.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Aug '11 10:26
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    But yet you can't separate your upbringing from your faith. They were just more effective than you first assumed. Their brainwashing worked perfectly in your case.

    You think it was free will that brought you to your present state but I can assure you it was no such thing, you were programmed to react exactly as you did.

    You and billions of people arou ...[text shortened]... t, anyone can. Some children have a built in sniffer of BS and I am thankful I was one of them.
    I wonder how thakful you will be when you find yourself in Hell.
    Never mind. Just a thought that came into my mind.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Aug '11 10:29
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    why is that a requirement?

    i am quite sure many husbands have met their best friends and can say without a doubt these best friends will never betray them. right until they find them schtooping the madam.


    i don't believe one could prove love. we experience it in different ways. you can know it if you have it but to see it in another is never 100% wi ...[text shortened]... but i don't need proof. believing god is real is enough for me even if i never get to see him.
    If you believe and trust in Jesus, you will see God. He is the only door.
  11. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
    rvsakhadeo
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    23 Aug '11 10:36
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Well yes I agree. But the [b]origin of their belief came about by believing in another man (unless god has spoken directly to them!). They then go on about their belief in god but never mention (because they themselves no longer neeed it) their initial belief in other people. One could call this gullibility.[/b]
    Are you suggesting that some theists being gullible are not quite equal to other humans viz. atheists? Yet the scientists who rely on the 'peer reviewed journals' articles for accepting the validity of this or that theory which sometimes is required to be discarded are not gullible? Let us not paint some atheists as lesser humans.
  12. Cape Town
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    23 Aug '11 10:57
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    i require a little clarification. what do you mean at the subconscious level? as in you suspect your best friend is shtooping your wife yet you haven't caught them?
    You may even have caught them. The point is that on one level you know what is true, and on another you deny it.
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    23 Aug '11 10:57
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If you believe and trust in Jesus, you will see God. He is the only door.
    why can't islam be a door to finding god? or buddhism?


    each try and reach the truth in their own way. jesus and christianity might be mine, but i am not arrogant enough to say muslims are wrong.
  14. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
    rvsakhadeo
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    23 Aug '11 11:05
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    why can't islam be a door to finding god? or buddhism?


    each try and reach the truth in their own way. jesus and christianity might be mine, but i am not arrogant enough to say muslims are wrong.
    Buddhism does not believe in 'Soul' neither in 'God'. Probably you meant Hinduism.
  15. Cape Town
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    23 Aug '11 11:411 edit
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    Buddhism does not believe in 'Soul' neither in 'God'. Probably you meant Hinduism.
    Or he means something different by 'God' or 'finding' than you think he does.
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