1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    22 Aug '11 20:10
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.

    But belief in what?

    I can believe in a friend when they say they will pay me back a loan.

    I can believe a co-worker when they tell me how a job is to be done.

    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt in god but in other mortals.

    Just because its written down doesnt make it true - its just a belief that some guys once upon a time hit upon some divine truth.

    Its not a belief in god.
  2. Joined
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    22 Aug '11 22:291 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.

    But belief in what?

    I can believe in a friend when they say they will pay me back a loan.

    I can believe a co-worker when they tell me how a job is to be done.

    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt ...[text shortened]... belief that some guys once upon a time hit upon some divine truth.

    Its not a belief in god.
    Well, first, I think the word you really mean is faith. I am quite certain that atheists have beliefs too. Second, faith isn't really applicable to all theistic religions. Certainly it is central to Christianity in which faith has a redemptive value. For other theists, however, faith may not have any significance. Perhaps they believe in God without characterising that belief as faith. Third, even in a Christian context, faith need not close down debate. Some Christians contrue faith as just blind belief made in the face of poverty of evidence. In that case you are quite entitled to walk away from the debate because that particular theist has essentially declared that their belief is not subject to any rational objections (such objections in fact just confirm the integrity of their faith.) For other theists, faith need not at all be blind belief. The original Latin word fides has the sense of 'loyalty' and 'trust'. I guess for Catholic and Orthodox Christians, faith is supposed to be a rational belief, characterised by adherence to God in testing times (hence the essential co-requisiteness of faith and works.)
  3. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 02:30
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.

    But belief in what?

    I can believe in a friend when they say they will pay me back a loan.

    I can believe a co-worker when they tell me how a job is to be done.

    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt ...[text shortened]... belief that some guys once upon a time hit upon some divine truth.

    Its not a belief in god.
    Then believe God.
  4. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 03:26
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.

    But belief in what?

    I can believe in a friend when they say they will pay me back a loan.

    I can believe a co-worker when they tell me how a job is to be done.

    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt ...[text shortened]... belief that some guys once upon a time hit upon some divine truth.

    Its not a belief in god.
    it is if they believe god revealed it. beliefs of course, don't validate the claims.
  5. Standard membermenace71
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    23 Aug '11 03:293 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    Then believe God.
    I agree belief is one thing but for the theist or dare I say Christian it's more than just belief. There is no way to really prove it to anyone though. I've had things happen to me that I attribute to God but I can't prove it 100%. I remember for example prayers for others coming to fruition. We prayed for an un-born child whose brain was partially out of it's scull and they said might not make it alive. The child survived and somehow the child's brain returned to being in it's skull. My mom had a 6 way bypass they said be prepared she might not make it off the table and a lot of people praying and she not only lived but the doctors had no clear explanation. I know God does not always answer the way we want however an answer does come. Prayer is one proof for me. There are many issues or stumbling blocks to cause people not to believe. Can't see it will not believe it is what most say. I struggle with my belief but I really don't think man has the answers. Call it a crutch but it is what it is.

    Manny
  6. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 04:28
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.
    most people ultimately cling to beliefs of one sort or another. the problem is not what beliefs they hold, the problem is that they have beliefs.
  7. Standard memberDasa
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    23 Aug '11 04:562 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    most people ultimately cling to beliefs of one sort or another. the problem is not what beliefs they hold, the problem is that they have beliefs.
    Yes and you cling to the believe that the cosmos and conscious life appeared by random chance.

    This is cheating and dishonest to present such nonsense.

    Everywhere you look we see design and purpose and function.

    Random chance can produce nothing.

    Persons who believe in creation ......can perceive created things.

    No one can see uncreated things.............this is dishonest.
  8. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 05:20
    Originally posted by menace71
    I agree belief is one thing but for the theist or dare I say Christian it's more than just belief. There is no way to really prove it to anyone though. I've had things happen to me that I attribute to God but I can't prove it 100%. I remember for example prayers for others coming to fruition. We prayed for an un-born child whose brain was partially out of i ...[text shortened]... really don't think man has the answers. Call it a crutch but it is what it is.

    Manny
    Well said.

    1 Cor 1:23
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Aug '11 05:56
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    most people ultimately cling to beliefs of one sort or another. the problem is not what beliefs they hold, the problem is that they have beliefs.
    As long as you are alive and have a brain to think you are going to
    have beliefs. The goal is to make them the right beliefs, otherwise
    we will destroy ourselves.
  10. Joined
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    23 Aug '11 06:14
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    As long as you are alive and have a brain to think you are going to
    have beliefs. The goal is to make them the right beliefs, otherwise
    we will destroy ourselves.
    all beliefs are self destructive. the goal is to have none.
  11. Illinois
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    23 Aug '11 06:57
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Well, first, I think the word you really mean is faith. I am quite certain that atheists have beliefs too. Second, faith isn't really applicable to all theistic religions. Certainly it is central to Christianity in which faith has a redemptive value. For other theists, however, faith may not have any significance. Perhaps they believe in God without ...[text shortened]... dherence to God in testing times (hence the essential co-requisiteness of faith and works.)
    You took the words right out of my mouth... as usual.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Aug '11 07:10
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    all beliefs are self destructive. the goal is to have none.
    Maybe when you die you will have your wish.
  13. weedhopper
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    23 Aug '11 07:36
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Theists ultimately cling to their belief. It is the ultimate ; killing off any debate.

    But belief in what?

    I can believe in a friend when they say they will pay me back a loan.

    I can believe a co-worker when they tell me how a job is to be done.

    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt ...[text shortened]... belief that some guys once upon a time hit upon some divine truth.

    Its not a belief in god.
    No doubt most, if not all, Christians began believing becaus of someone telling them "This is so"--probably parents. But God gave us a wonderful organ called a brain, and as we grow older, we read things with discernment. We don't hat our parents for telling us there was a Santa Claus, and neither do we confuse a fictitous bearded elf with the King of Kings. Some use there brains, read a lot of theology/philosophy and what have you, and come to the conclusion that there is no God. A member of my family gave me this as his main reason for his no longer believing in God. I feel certain I read many if not most of the same books, took the same college courses, yet my faith remains unshaken. No, I don't think we believe in "them who told us about God"--we believe in God, and we simply believe that those folks who told us were right 🙂
  14. Cape Town
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    23 Aug '11 08:00
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    But religion?
    Aren't theists believing in the person(s) that told them?
    Their belief isnt in god but in other mortals.
    No, you have it all wrong.
    Theists do not continue to believe because of trust in another person. They continue to believe because they need to believe.
    Although theists typically join a religion (or start to believe) based on a person they trust (a parent, friend or authority figure), but that is not what sustains their belief.
    You never hear a theist say "If I am wrong then [trusted person] is wrong and I cant accept that."
    Instead you hear "If I am wrong then I am going to die." or "If I am wrong then my life has no purpose" or "If I am wrong then what will stop me from becoming a murderer".
    There are also deeper reasons that they may not talk about, like the need to talk to someone in prayer, or the need to feel forgiven for their sins (guilt avoidance) etc.
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    23 Aug '11 08:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, you have it all wrong.
    Theists do not continue to believe because of trust in another person. They continue to believe because they need to believe.
    Although theists typically join a religion (or start to believe) based on a person they trust (a parent, friend or authority figure), but that is not what sustains their belief.
    You never hear a theist ...[text shortened]... to someone in prayer, or the need to feel forgiven for their sins (guilt avoidance) etc.
    Well yes I agree. But the origin of their belief came about by believing in another man (unless god has spoken directly to them!). They then go on about their belief in god but never mention (because they themselves no longer neeed it) their initial belief in other people. One could call this gullibility.
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