“We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say “O Lord” three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they have the intention or not, as long as they open the
window, the air will get in. It is not a matter of teaching; it is a matter of touching the seven Spirits of God.”
Witness Lee, Stream Magazine, p.6 (1970)
So, according to Witness Lee (and presumably Sonship) an atheist can be saved even if they have no intention of believing in God. They only need to speak hollow words. (I have just done that and safeguarded my own salvation.)
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNot presumably sonship. Sonship preaches that garbage here all the time.
“We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say “O Lord” three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they have the intention o ...[text shortened]... God. They only need to speak hollow words. (I have just done that and safeguarded my own salvation.)
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell, Rajk has stated that belief is not necessary either. (I'm pretty sure).
“We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say “O Lord” three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they have the intention o ...[text shortened]... God. They only need to speak hollow words. (I have just done that and safeguarded my own salvation.)
His stance seems to be that what's in your heart and your actions are good enough for God.
I've always been interested in his theory because it nullifies the guilt associated with the doubt about it all.
@rajk999 saidSurely that can't be right, for Hebrews 11:6 tells us, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Not presumably sonship. Sonship preaches that garbage here all the time.
Witness Lee on the other hand tells us the atheist can hoodwink God simply by calling on his name 3 times, even when lacking any intent to believe. - Surely Sonship wouldn't follow Witness Lee on this and ignore scripture? Surely?!
@chaney3 saidHe elevates 'works.' (And rightly so). That is not the same as saying belief isn't necessary or irrelevant to God.
Well, Rajk has stated that belief is not necessary either. (I'm pretty sure).
His stance seems to be that what's in your heart and your actions are good enough for God.
I've always been interested in his theory because it nullifies the guilt associated with the doubt about it all.
The fate of atheists is in his God's hands, not Rajk's, and he knows this.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Ghost this is beneath you.
You started one thread on "Let's stone Witness Lee and sonship" already. Do you really need to fabricate another line of attack ?
Now I am tempted to be rude. I don't wish to be.
You know good and will that maybe 50 times I have quoted Romans 10 which says "BELEIVE IN YOUR HEART" along with calling on the name of the Lord. You KNOW that.
Folks. Here is apostolic instructions on the minimum of being saved unto eternal redemption and eternal life. Sorry, it was written by the Apostle Paul long before the 20th Century.
"But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is the word of faith which we proclaim.
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
For with the heart there is BELIEVING . . . unto righteousness and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." (Rom.10:8-10)
Readers ask yourself, how HONEST is Ghost of a Duke being about me and is he misrepresenting and twisting deliberately quotations from publications by one Brother Witness Lee?
How many times have you seen me refer to this passage over the years?
Doesn't it talk about "AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART" that God has raised the Lord Jesus from the dead.
What is your verdict? Is Ghost of a Duke being truthful in representing what I have taught here? Is he selecting portions of isolated sentence parts to give a truthful representation of a teacher of the Gospel, Witness Lee?
@sonship
Who is right Sonship? They can't both be:
Hebrews 11:6 tells us, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
"All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught!" - Witness Lee
Hebrews, "diligently seek Him" v Witness Lee's, "no intention of believing' necessary.
@chaney3 saidI say belief is not necessary. I say Good Works IS Necessary.
Well, Rajk has stated that belief is not necessary either. (I'm pretty sure).
His stance seems to be that what's in your heart and your actions are good enough for God.
I've always been interested in his theory because it nullifies the guilt associated with the doubt about it all.
Witness Lee says to say 'O Lord' 3 times and that is sufficient.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidPaul speaks to Christian Saints in Christ. Paul is not addressing those who have not seen the power of God at the hands of the early church elders doing miracles and raising the dead. Paul addressed this situation about those with no law in Romans 2 which we both have posted here for people to discuss.
Surely that can't be right, for Hebrews 11:6 tells us, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Witness Lee on the other hand tells us the atheist can hoodwink God simply by calling on his name 3 times, even when lacking any intent to believe. - Surely Sonship wouldn't follow Witness Lee on this and ignore scripture? Surely?!
I keep saying that Christian Saints are a different breed of people, called for a higher purpose and destined for a greater position in the Kingdom of God than regular Christians or unbelievers.
These must have BOTH faith and good works.
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The Recovery Version Bible (with footnotes by Witness Lee) has this written in the verse of Romans 10:10
Copied BY HAND from the RcV Bible opened before me on my desk. (my bolding)
"To believe with the heart is toward God; to confess with the mouth is toward man. To believe with the heart is to believe in Christ, who was glorified and raised by God from the dead; to confess with the mouth is to confess that Jesus, who was despised and rejected by man, is Lord. Both are conditions for our being justified and saved."
[Footenote 10(1) on Romans 10:10]
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“We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say “O Lord” three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they have the intention or not, as long as they open the
window, the air will get in. It is not a matter of teaching; it is a matter of touching the seven Spirits of God.”
It doesn't say they do not believe.
It says THEY HAD NO INTENTION to.
The fact of the matter is HISTORICALLY many sinners down the ages were reluctant and had no intention to be saved, nevertheless, somehow became believing ones when that mysterious transaction between them and the Lord Jesus took place.
You readers who are Christians - HOW many of us initially HAD NO INTENTION to reeceive the Lord Jesus and believe into Him, somehow received mercy one moment and we believed - perhaps in calling, in praying, in responding to the Holy Spirit moving in our hearts.
How many of you are familiar with the classic Christians Hymn "Just As I Am"
One coming to Jesus with -
"With many a conflict, many a doubt;
Fightings within, and fears without,"
The writer of that hymn touched the hearts of millions of singers of this song. It use to be a staple of the Billy Graham evangelistic crusade - "Just As I Am".
Here are the lyrics to that classic song of one reluctant and feeling unprepared sinner coming to Jesus with much baggage seeming to disqualify them'.
Just As I Am lyrics by Charlette Elliot (1789 - 1871)
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bid’st me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come! I come!
2
Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot;
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
3
Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt;
Fightings within, and fears without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
4
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind;
Yes, all I need, in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
5
Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
6
Just as I am, Thy love unknown
Has broken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
@ghost-of-a-duke saidClearly Sonship you place the words of Witness Lee above scripture.
@sonship
Who is right Sonship? They can't both be:
Hebrews 11:6 tells us, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
"All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they wi ...[text shortened]... ss Lee
Hebrews, "diligently seek Him" v Witness Lee's, "no intention of believing' necessary.
@sonship saidNow you are (in a panic) twisting the words of Witness Lee. His meaning is blatantly obvious.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
[quote] “We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them say “O Lord” three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught! Regardless of whether they ha ...[text shortened]... oken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
[/b]
"All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught!"
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIn a panic and quoting hymns lol.
Now you are (in a panic) twisting the words of Witness Lee. His meaning is blatantly obvious.
"All they have to do is to open their mouths and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught!"
La la La la La la La la La la La la La la
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSonship has placed Witness Lee above God and above Christ.
Clearly Sonship you place the words of Witness Lee above scripture.