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05 May 13
4 edits
Originally posted by tim88Let's generalize this matter a bit to be fair.
For those of you that don't believe in a young earth but believe the earth is 4 billion years old. and assuming you believe in Genesis 1:24-31.Then that means we have been here for 4 billion years and god has not come yet? is that what you believe
1) Let's assume by "young earth" you mean 10,000 years or less.
2) Let's also say an unspecified age which conceivably could run into billions of years.
Now I read Genesis 1:24-31 and could not quite figure out what you mean by your question. Could you clarify what you mean by these words -
"Then that means we have been here for 4 billion years and god has not come yet? "
Are you assuming that every Bible reader who sees a very ancient physical earth also has to believe humanity has been on that earth all that time ? That is not the interpretation of all Bible readers who believe in an "old earth."
The earth could be millions or billions of years in existence without human beings upon it.
Now the part about "god has not come yet?" What is this suppose to mean ?
Are you refering to the coming of God to Abraham and Sarah?
Are you refering to the coming of God to the Hebrews at the time of Exodus?
Are you refering to the incarnation of Christ in the new testament age?
Are you refering to the second coming of Christ at the end of the church age?
Are you refering to the fact that God is omnipresent and in one sense has no need to "come" where He already is ?
What do you mean? It sounds like you are trying to critique a Day Age interpretation of seven days.
All readers of the Bible who understand a possibly very ancient earth do not automatically also see the seven days of Genesis 1 as long ages.
05 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipon the sixth day god made mankind. what more do i need to say?
Let's generalize this matter a bit to be fair.
1) Let's assume by "young earth" you mean 10,000 years or less.
2) Let's also say an unspecified age which conceivably could run into billions of years.
Now I read Genesis 1:24-31 and could not quite figure out what you mean by your question. Could you clarify what you mean by these words -
[ ...[text shortened]... cient earth do not automatically also see the seven days of Genesis 1 as long ages.
05 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipI hope I don't seem like I am just butting in, but I think i understand his point. He is referring to the Genesis account of creation that Jesus and all Christians should believe, if we are truly followers in Christ. So if you believe man was created on the 6th day, which is only three days after the earth was finished and that took place 4 billion years ago as evil-lutionists claim, how do you reconcile the fact that God has allowed man to remain in sin for so long? How long are we going to have to wait for the coming of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ? Does coming soon mean that man may have to wait another 2 or 3 billion years for salvation?
Let's generalize this matter a bit to be fair.
1) Let's assume by "young earth" you mean 10,000 years or less.
2) Let's also say an unspecified age which conceivably could run into billions of years.
Now I read Genesis 1:24-31 and could not quite figure out what you mean by your question. Could you clarify what you mean by these words -
[ cient earth do not automatically also see the seven days of Genesis 1 as long ages.
05 May 13
5 edits
Actually, Jesus never said He was coming soon. He said he was coming quickly, or suddenly like lightning. Even in Revelations were it says, "I am coming soon" in some translations it is actually a mistranslation of a Greek word that means "swiftly".
Some of the disciples seemed to think Jesus was coming soon because Jesus told them to always be ready for they would not know when he would come but that it would be suddenly like lightning. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews says,
"For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay."
The apostle Peter says,
" knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.' For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."[b]
(2 Peter 3:3-10 NKJV)
If Evil-lution is true and we have to wait billions of years for His coming, then we may have devolved back into the ape creature and there will be no men left to save when He comes. All He can do then is resurrect the dead for the judgments.
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06 May 13
on the sixth day god made mankind. what more do i need to say?
I believe that God created man on the sixth day according to Genesis 1:26-27
Now here's a question. Could there be any day before the day where Genesis 1:5 says "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."
This the reader may count as the first day of the six culminating in the creartion of man.
"And there was evening and there was morning, one day."
Could there be any day anywhere in the universe prior to this day?
I would say the answer is, yes there could be.
There could be a day before the day where it was said -
"And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."
Put another way. Could there be another day before the six days where Expdus 20:11 says -
"For in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it."
Could there possibly be a day in the unverse somewhere prior to these six days? I say, yes there could be. It would be under a different economy, a different governmental arrangement. And it could even be upon the earth that God made in six days according to Exodus 20:11.
As I told RJHinds, I now tell you. If God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning and it was under a different deputy authority and a different economy, and He overthrew that world so that the earth was rendered waste and empty, and then He restored and further created some things then it would STILL be a true statement that -
"For in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them ..."
Under a different arrangement for the creation there could be days before "in six days Jeohvah made heaven and earth ... " .
One which day of Genesis do you suppose this fact was accomplished concerning the creation of the being that became Satan ?
"You were in Eden, the garden of God. ... The workmanship of your tambourines and your pipes was prepared with you on the day that you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." (Ezek. 28:13a,14,15)
Prove to me that you know "on the day in which you were created" and "from the day that you were created" HAS to be one of the six days mentioned in Genesis chapter 1.
How do you know that this "day that you were created" could not be a day before we see "and the earth was waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gen. 1:2) ?
06 May 13
Originally posted by RJHindsYour really do not know the answers to this do you?
I hope I don't seem like I am just butting in, but I think i understand his point. He is referring to the Genesis account of creation that Jesus and all Christians should believe, if we are truly followers in Christ. So if you believe man was created on the 6th day, which is only three days after the earth was finished and that took place 4 billion years a ...[text shortened]... t? Does coming soon mean that man may have to wait another 2 or 3 billion years for salvation?
06 May 13
The point that is being missed here is that God's timetable and the "real time" is his and not like our concept of time.
Since he is the creator of all things and the bible has proved he can even alter time to fit his needs, he is the one who controls time.
He has explained in the Bible what time is to some extent so that we can use it to understand, guide and plan our days and years and lifetimes by it.
The Bible says he is a "God of order" so that would indicate his abilities to keep his time as well as our perceived time in an orderly fashion.
The Bible also says "his ways and thoughts are not our ways".
So our concept of time is for us to use but that by no means indicates his "time" is like ours. His description of the "creative days" does not mean it is a 24 hour period at all.
In fact all other evidence in the solar system does not coinside with the earth being only a few days old when Adam was created.
06 May 13
Originally posted by galveston75Good. You saved me the trouble.
The point that is being missed here is that God's timetable and the "real time" is his and not like our concept of time.
Since he is the creator of all things and the bible has proved he can even alter time to fit his needs, he is the one who controls time.
He has explained in the Bible what time is to some extent so that we can use it to understand ...[text shortened]... tem does not coinside with the earth being only a few days old when Adam was created.
The only thing I have trouble with is creationists thinking their narrow view is 'science', and insisting that it be taught to kids as if it were fact.
07 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipYou seem not to respect what I say, so perhaps you will respect what a biblical Hebrew scholar has to say about the day in Genesis 1.on the sixth day god made mankind. what more do i need to say?
I believe that God created man on the sixth day according to [b]Genesis 1:26-27
Now here's a question. Could there be any day before the day where Genesis 1:5 says "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and ther emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gen. 1:2) ?[/b]
Dr Ting Wang, lecturer in biblical Hebrew, says the following:
Many ‘old-earth creationists’ claim to believe that Genesis was truly history, but they want to fit in the billions of years proposed by scientists who weren’t there. So they assert that the creation days were really long periods of time.
No one denies that the Hebrew word tranlated “day” can mean a period or era in some contexts in both languages. However, in Genesis 1, yôm comes with “evening” and “morning”, and is modified by a number. So it’s obvious that the Hebrew text is describing a 24-hour day—the exegetical burden of proof rests crushingly upon those who view otherwise (notice too that in Jeremiah 33:17–22, God’s covenant with the day and the night, so that both will come at the appointed time, is as unalterable as the promise that a son of David will reign). But no amount of evidence will convince those who are persuaded to play devil’s advocate—just like the serpent in Genesis 3, they must ask, “Did God really say?”
http://creation.com/hebrew-scholar-affirms-that-genesis-means-what-it-says-ting-wang
Now getting to the creation of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The creation account refers to a physical creation and not to the creation of cherubim or seraphim, which are not physical creatures, but spiritual creatures.
Lucifer, a.k.a. Satan, was a cherub at the throne of God before the creation of any physical world. Satan entered the physical serpent in order to tempt Eve to sin against God. So in the case of the verse you quoted in Ezekiel 28 that "day" may not represent a physical 24 hour day as we know it because it is not specified in the way the days of Genesis 1 are specified. So that day could cover a period or era before the physical creation.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
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07 May 13
7 edits
Now getting to the creation of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The creation account refers to a physical creation and not to the creation of cherubim or seraphim, which are not physical creatures, but spiritual creatures.
Lucifer, a.k.a. Satan, was a cherub at the throne of God before the creation of any physical world. Satan entered the physical serpent in order to tempt Eve to sin against God. So in the case of the verse you quoted in Ezekiel 28 that "day" may not represent a physical 24 hour day as we know it because it is not specified in the way the days of Genesis 1 are specified. So that day could cover a period or era before the physical creation.
Your objection that day in Ezekiel 28:13 and 15 is not that strong.
The Hebrew word translated "day" in Genesis 1:5 (twice), 8,13,14,16,18,19,23,31,2:2 refering to the seven days is the same word for day in Ezekiel 28:13 and 15.
Strong Exhaustive Concordance Hebrew Dictionary entry # 3117.
yome
Now you may insist that the mention of evening and morning precludes that only a solar day could be meant in Genesis 1. However, by a similar logic "You were perfect in your ways from the DAY that you were created ..." does not insist that AGE has to be understood there. Rather liturally on the solar day he was created he was perfect in his ways.
Similarly "The workmanship of your tambourines was prepared with you on the DAY that you were created" does not insist that an AGE has to be understood there. Rather it certainly could be that on that solar day both the anointed cherub AND the musical instruments accompanying him were both created and prepared at that same point in time.
The word of God is infallible. Our interpretations of the word of God are not infallible.
And in the end of the first century AD and the beginning of the second century AD Hebrew reading rabbis had no reason to be concerned with harmonizing Scripture with Evolution theories which did not exist yet. Nor had they concern to accomodate Scripture to geological theories which also did not exist. Neither Geology nor Evolution Theory had been thought of yet.
However, some Hebrew reading and writing scholars understood that prior to the earth being seen waste and empty God had overthrown previous worlds. And such was found written in The Book of Light or Sefer Hazzohar attributed to one Simeon ben Joachai a disciple of Akiba ben Joseph who [Akiba] was executed in 135 AD.
In this work we see the opinion held towards the end of the first century and the early part of the second century. In this work there is a comment on Gen. 2:4-6 which, though difficult to follow, reads thus:
"These are the generations of heaven and earth ... Now wherever there is written the word 'these' ... the previous words are put aside. And these are the generations of the destruction which is signified in verse 2 of chapter 1. The earth was Tohu and Bohu. These indeed are the worlds of which it is said that the blessed God created them and destroyed them, and, on that account, the earth was desolate and empty."
This is Hebrew Bible exegesis in the end of the first century and early second century AD.
Without concern for concocting billions of years these readers simply understood that Genesis was refering to previous worlds being judged by God.
Also in the Targum of Onkelos of the early part of the second century AD the translation into Aramaic of Genesis 1:2 reads - "w' areteah hawath tsadh'ya". This Arthur Custance informs us this translation uses a passive participle of a verb which itself means "to cut" or "to lay waste".
We have here, therefore, a rendering "and the earth was laid waste", an interpretation of the original Hebrew of Gen. 1:2 which leave little room for doubt that Onkelos understood this to mean that something had occurred between verse 1 and verse 2 to reduce the earth to this desolated condition.
[Arthur Custance, Without Form And Void, Doorway Publications, pg.15]
As long as we are trading scholars opinions, include this also in your considerations.
07 May 13
If indeed God created the universe and time He could manipulate it but I think God does not always violate the laws that He established such as linear time or at least our perception of it. I lean more towards a young earth which there seems to be some contradiction in what we see out in the universe and YEC models. I think the universe is about as vast as we think it is. So is God a god of deception? No so there has to be another answer. I don't buy into the "C" decay idea that some YECers have said is happening. If "C" were faster in the past this totally messes with the E=MC² it would effect energy output of stars and the universe. I think the stretching theory is the best solution for YECers.
Manny
07 May 13
Originally posted by menace71"If indeed God created the universe and time"
If indeed God created the universe and time He could manipulate it but I think God does not always violate the laws that He established such as linear time or at least our perception of it. I lean more towards a young earth which there seems to be some contradiction in what we see out in the universe and YEC models. I think the universe is about as vast as ...[text shortened]... and the universe. I think the stretching theory is the best solution for YECers.
Manny
So you are questioning if God did indeed create the universe?
07 May 13
Originally posted by menace71The stretching theory is the best solution, because that is what is written in the Holy Bible.
If indeed God created the universe and time He could manipulate it but I think God does not always violate the laws that He established such as linear time or at least our perception of it. I lean more towards a young earth which there seems to be some contradiction in what we see out in the universe and YEC models. I think the universe is about as vast as ...[text shortened]... and the universe. I think the stretching theory is the best solution for YECers.
Manny
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