Cain and Abel 2.0

Originally posted by divegeester
Pride and unbelief are at the heart of man's fall, as is clearly stated in the Genesis account.

Not on man's part it wasn't. It was Lucifer who was full of pride and unbelief.

Adam was innocent. That means not guilty. But he disobeyed, and that is what caused the fall.

Originally posted by divegeester
Pride and unbelief are at the heart of man's fall, as is clearly stated in the Genesis account.

(Joseph: I would suggest disobedience was the symptom not the cause.)

The account is clear. Your interpretation is faulty.

Adam was innocent. He disobeyed. That was his first mistake.

Originally posted by josephw
Not on man's part it wasn't. It was Lucifer who was full of pride and unbelief.

Adam was innocent. That means not guilty. But he disobeyed, and that is what caused the fall.

Yes Lucifer was as you describe, and Adam was as innocent as Jesus was in the wilderness when tempted by Satan. The difference between Jesus actions and those of Adams was dependent on Adam's unbelief in God's declaration that "you will surely die", pride in his own judgment and the resultant action was his disobedience.

You will notice that Eve took of the fruit first and yet God held Adam accountable as he was in authority; it was not Eve's disobedience that caused the fall it was Adam's pride and unbelief. I think this is an important distinction and also adds weight to your thread about the sun whereby the issue with mankind is pride and unbelief.

Originally posted by josephw
The account is clear. Your interpretation is faulty.

Adam was innocent. He disobeyed. That was his first mistake.

See my other response.

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes Lucifer was as you describe, and Adam was as innocent as Jesus was in the wilderness when tempted by Satan. The difference between Jesus actions and those of Adams was dependent on Adam's unbelief in God's declaration that "you will surely die", pride in his own judgment and the resultant action was his disobedience.

You will notice that Eve t ...[text shortened]... weight to your thread about the sun whereby the issue with mankind is pride and unbelief.

"...pride in his own judgment and the resultant action was his disobedience."

How you glean from the scripture that Adam had pride and that that is what caused him to disobey is beyond me.

How can an innocent have pride?

Other than Adam's own words "it was the woman you gave me" that he used as an excuse for his disobedience, I can find no reason for it.

Originally posted by josephw
How can an innocent have pride?

Other than Adam's own words "it was the woman you gave me" that he used as an excuse for his disobedience, I can find no reason for it.

Are you suggesting that Adam's sin was accidental?

The fact that Adam blamed Eve is evident of his need to hide from God and to cast blame from himself nothing more. Eve was at fault but she is not the cause of the fall Adam is.

WHY Adam ate the fruit is what I am driving at, not the actual eating of it.

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you suggesting that Adam's sin was accidental?

The fact that Adam blamed Eve is evident of his need to hide from God and to cast blame from himself nothing more. Eve was at fault but she is not the cause of the fall Adam is.

WHY Adam ate the fruit is what I am driving at, not the actual eating of it.

Some how we're misunderstanding each other.

I agree. Adam is to blame. Not Eve.

No, I don't think Adam's transgression was accidental, but it wasn't because of sin that Adam disobeyed. Adam was without sin until he disobeyed.

Why on earth did Adam disobey? I honestly don't know.

Eve, as we know, was "beguiled", but Adam wasn't. He knew what the consequences would be, but chose to disobey anyway. Why? I don't know.

I can find nothing concrete about "why" Adam disobeyed in the account in the scriptures. Only that he did, and then found himself naked and exposed.

Originally posted by josephw
...but it wasn't because of sin that Adam disobeyed. Adam was without sin until he disobeyed.

We possibly are circling the same point.

However I feel there is something not right with what you have written here. Disobedience is a state of heart/spirit not an act.

Originally posted by divegeester
We possibly are circling the same point.

However I feel there is something not right with what you have written here. Disobedience is a state of heart/spirit not an act.

You may be right.

I'll look at it more closely.


In the mean time, I think we just hijacked this thread. 😉

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you so easily embrace and quote other authors and yet ignore the actual biblical themes appertaining to the accounts you are referring to?

Because basically I think that the authors I quoted are essentially conveying the same message as the Genesis story (or at least what I interpret it to be). They just tell it in very different ways. I don't think the stories were intended to be taken literally. They were understood to be poetic devices for conveying some basic truths.

Originally posted by josephw
What is at the heart of the fall was it's cause. Disobedience.

What you state are the effects. And I would agree.

What caused The Fall was the inability of an expanding population to continue living as hunter-gatherers. Agriculture, private property, and civil society became necessary evils which resulted in The Fall. Jesus' message was about retaining the advantages of civilization while recapturing mankind's primeval innocence from before The Fall.

Originally posted by divegeester
Jesus did not come to bring peace (in his time) but a sword.

What an impoverished viewpoint.

Originally posted by rwingett
What an impoverished viewpoint.

You may hold that opinion, but it is what Jesus said.

Matt 10: 34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Jesus was not a socialist.

The account of Cain and Abel is not about socialism or social development, it is about faith.