1 edit
@sonship saidThe point is not that Lee copied exactly every concept from Thomas Aquinas.
@KingDavid403
I think sonship has an excellent understanding of the scriptures
I agee. However, I do not agree with attempting to teach a new Christian Theory as, 'Witness Lee's teachings' in this forum. It's far to in-depth etc. Furthermore, many do not agree with much of it, including I. I want to hear much about Jesus etc; not much about Witness Lee.
When Thomas Aq ...[text shortened]... is - Isn't it a very old theology that some form of deification was
already spoken to here?
Thomas Aquinas was to Catholic for me. However, I do like some of his views that he had on 'life with-in the womb.' He basically believed that life did not begin in the womb until "The Quickening;" (that's 116 days after conception when the fetus begins to physically move). That was the law on abortion then; and, around 1500 years before that, all the way back to the 300s BC.
do you feel he was creating "a new Christian Theory" in the 13th century?
Yes; or expanding on one that was taught to him. As with many others in the last 2000 years or so.
Go study some of the major Theologians that lived over the last 1800 years or so. I think almost all of them were whacked; in some of their views anyway. Some I liked; however, even the ones I liked had some whacked-out views, in my opinion.
@josephw saidAll I see in your [sonship] characterizations is a flushing-out-of-interpretations by the use of a preponderance of excessive words, some of which don't appear in scripture, to the extent that one is drowned into an oblivion of the loss of the ability to think critically about what the scriptures are teaching, especially to the individual student. The Holy Spirit teaches, as do those qualified by God to be pastor teachers.
Sorry, but I just don't parse it out that way.
Yours is an ardent and unrelenting word badgering into submission anyone caught in your sights.
This isn't a private Christian Bible study. This is a public forum, and you're going to be met with equal zeal those, whether Christian or not, that disagree with you.
This is not your seminary, and it is not your classroom. You are not a Dr. of theology. You're just another boob like the rest of us that thinks they know-better-than-thou what we're talking about.
Nail. On the head. Hit.
7 edits
Deification means: 'to be worshiped as a god' [paraphrased].
If you are saying that you, or any human are to be worshiped as a god, then yes, that is blasphemy.
We will be "purified," "cleansed," "washed whiter than snow." etc; however, WE will never be deified; that is Jesus.
Deification has not always meant to be worshipped in Christian theology.
And recall I pointed out that Paul and Barnabus refused to be made demigods in
Acts 14:1-15.
Surely we ARE "purified, cleansed,washed whiter than snow."
But the NT also says "His [God's] SEED abides in him" (we who are begotten of God). That is a matter of not just having past record of conduct washed away before God. But it is the implanting of a new NATURE with its own life.
"Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9)
1.) A divine seed is a matter of life and nature.
2.) The record of sin is expunged as to past guilt. But the new life and nature is the answer to the power of sin.
" . . . greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world." (1 John 4:4)
3.) Every seed is for growing, developing, maturing, and blossoming
(or coming into final expression). We should expect the same of the seed implanted within us of "the divine nature"
So Paul labored as a mother with child that Christ (the divine seed) would be
formed in the Galatian Christians.
"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you"(Gal. 4:19) not that they would be worshipped though, but that they would overcome "the present evil age."
1 edit
Yes; or expanding on one that was taught to him. As with many others in the last 2000 years or so.
Go study some of the major Theologians that lived over the last 1800 years or so. I think almost all of them were whacked; in some of their views anyway. Some I liked; however, even the ones I liked had some whacked-out views, in my opinion.
No Christian teacher has even been infallible. And you know Catholicism is a big mixture. Deep down in there you can always find something rock solid in agreement with the text of the Bible.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead the church into all the truth.
It may be a leading over a long period of time. But it is a leading nonetheless.
In this leading, I believe He will recover some neglected and long buried truths.
That is return from apostasy.
And He will deepen appreciation of certain aspects of God's word in accordance to the times. We are heading, I believe, into the last days before Christ's physical descent again to the earth.
Many Christians speak glibly about glorification. But we need to ask sometimes "What do you mean?" God today is recovering glorification because from the inside out one is saturated and permeated with Christ as life. I understand that some would not feel comfortable with a word that connotates dictators like Roman emporers who deified themselves into gods to be worshipped.
But saturation with Christ in greater oneness with Him via His imparted nature is the way we can meet Him in confidence.
"When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)
So I ask Christianity - "What do you mean by glorified?"
I know the Bible speaks of being transformed into the same image from glory to glory by the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
What do you mean by glorification at Christ's return?
KingDavid? Josephw?
Its a genuine question and not a badgering to bludgeon you into submission.
I think some exaggeration arose.
2 edits
@sonship saidNo Christian teacher has even been infallible. And you know Catholicism is a big mixture. Deep down in there you can always find something rock solid in agreement with the text of the Bible.
@KingDavid403
Yes; or expanding on one that was taught to him. As with many others in the last 2000 years or so.
Go study some of the major Theologians that lived over the last 1800 years or so. I think almost all of them were whacked; in some of their views anyway. Some I liked; however, even the ones I liked had some whacked-out views, in my opinion.
...[text shortened]... believe He will recover some neglected and long buried truths.
That is return from apostasy.
The Catholic religion is one of the oldest Christian religions in the world. The Catholic Church became the Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire); the Catholic Church controlled all of Europe for 1200 years or so through the Church. When one was born, they were baptized as a baby by the Church ( government), then one was owned by the Catholic Church from that moment on.
Either way, the Catholic Church is the foundation of all western Christianity besides Christ Himself. Of course I find "some truths" in their religion.
3 edits
@sonship said"But the NT also says "His [God's] SEED abides in him" (we who are begotten of God). That is a matter of not just having past record of conduct washed away before God."
@KingDavid403
Deification means: 'to be worshiped as a god' [paraphrased].
If you are saying that you, or any human are to be worshiped as a god, then yes, that is blasphemy.
We will be "purified," "cleansed," "washed whiter than snow." etc; however, WE will never be deified; that is Jesus.
Deification has not always meant to be worshipped in C ...[text shortened]... ot that they would be worshipped though, but that they would overcome [b]"the present evil age."
"But it is the implanting of a new NATURE with its own life."
Please tell us the change in you when you received this "new NATURE" ? Is this being born again Spiritually with God's Holy Spirit ? Or, a new Nature? Or both?
Please tell us the change in you when you received this "new NATURE" ? Is this being born again Spiritually with God's Holy Spirit ? Or, a new Nature? Or both?
It is both.
The sense of relatedness to God is something supernatural. After the new birth eventually the sesne of His Fatherhood in an intimte way arises. This is something that the world cannot give nor take away.
Receiving a new nature does not mean instantaneous maturity any more than being born naturally means instant adulthood. You have been use to living in the natural man. To learn to live in touch with the Father within takes time.
I found I had to be with others who understood that God was now real to me.
Other people, you slowly realize, do not know what you're talking about.
You spoke above yourself of cleansing, washing, and purifying.
The sense of being released from your sins is something supernatural.
Even the fact that you believe at all, you now view as miraculous.
No inclination for God or His word previosuly.
Gradually you learn you have to have the food embodied in the word.
A hunger and thirst inside is not meet with anything else under the sun.
The conscience awakens as never before.
Previously you felt nothing at all about speakingh certain words, ding certain
things. The taste of sinning was like sweet candy to your soul. Now more and
more it is like tasting bitter food. And you know that something has changed
within you.
Previously people could curse around you using the name Jesus Christ as two part curse word. You felt nothing before. Now when you hear such you feel sick in your ears and heart for some unexplained reason.
When the Spirit is happy - you are happy.
When the Spirit is grieved - you also feel grieved.
That is a new nature imparted into your being.
You should not take a new nature planted as a seed in your innermost being to mean sudden instantaneous full spiritual adulthood. Every born person must start out a baby. Spiritual babyhood at being regenerated is the same.
Then God has a "curriculum" for you after the first period of a near ecstatic "honeymoon". Then come the first trial. Measured out according to God's wisdom.
If you get through your roots into Christ just deepened. Then a period of rest.
Then another trial measured out by the wise Father. EVentually you learn the nature of the "program" God has for you. And you grow. And when you grow you need more fellowship with others who understand also what is happening to you.
The truine God is growing and the seed of life is growing. This is a life long matter.
And it is different for different people. There those with a dramatif first day or week as to changes. Others - barely perceptable for a lomg time.
With the latter though, it hits them eventually, "I have changed. I know Someone I never sensed before."
1 edit
@sonship saidThank you. I agree with many of your thoughts here; others I do not. To each his own.
@KingDavid403Please tell us the change in you when you received this "new NATURE" ? Is this being born again Spiritually with God's Holy Spirit ? Or, a new Nature? Or both?
It is both.
The sense of relatedness to God is something supernatural. After the new birth eventually the sesne of His Fatherhood in an intimte way arises. This is something t ...[text shortened]... the latter though, it hits them eventually, "I have changed. I know Someone I never sensed before."
What you have here is Witness Lee's theology; we will say, a theology of Theologian Witness Lee. It sounds like there are many people that still believe his theology views; as you. Again, to each his, or her, own. In the end, it's all about Jesus. 🙂
3 edits
@KingDavid403
Did you write this?
. I want to hear much about Jesus etc; not much about Witness Lee.
If so why do you mention him so many times in that post ?
Yes it is all about Christ and His Body, the church.
And I was hoping that you would answer the question I had about what was glorification in your belief ? Don't want to talk about it? Glorification?
Bumped
So I ask Christianity - "What do you mean by glorified?"
I know the Bible speaks of being transformed into the same image from glory to glory by the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
What do you mean by glorification at Christ's return?
KingDavid? Josephw?
Its a genuine question and not a badgering to bludgeon you into submission.
I think some exaggeration arose.
2 edits
@sonship saidAnd I was hoping that you would answer the question I had about what was glorification in your belief ? Don't want to talk about it? Glorification?
Bumped
So I ask Christianity - "What do you mean by glorified?"
I know the Bible speaks of being transformed into the same image from glory to glory by the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
What do you mean by glorification at Christ's return?
KingDavid? Josephw?
Its a genuine question and not a badgering to bludgeon you into submission.
I think some exaggeration arose.
Whatever it is, it does NOT mean that we will be deified ( be worshiped as a god by others). It's simple really.