1. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 14:552 edits
    "Then they took the stone away. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the crowd standing around, I said it, that they may believe that You have sent Me.

    And when He has said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, LAZARUS, COME OUT!

    And he who had died came out, bound hand and foot with cloths, and his face was bound about with a handkerchief.

    Jesus said to them, Loose him and let him go." (John 11:41-44 my emphasis)
  2. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 15:09
    Originally posted by jaywill
    "Then they took the stone away. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the crowd standing around, I said it, that they may believe that You have sent Me.

    And when He has said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, [b] LAZARUS, COME OUT!


    And he wh ...[text shortened]... handkerchief.

    Jesus said to them, Loose him and let him go." (John 11:41-44 my emphasis)[/b]
    Amazing isn't it!?

    One can either choose to believe it or not.
  3. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 15:17
    Originally posted by josephw
    Amazing isn't it!?

    One can either choose to believe it or not.
    I love the way the Bible just relates things in a matter of fact manner.

    There is never any begging to believe.

    "Here's what happened. That's that, period."
  4. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 15:311 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I love the way the Bible just relates things in a matter of fact manner.

    There is never any begging to believe.

    "Here's what happened. That's that, period."
    By extension, that same idea can be applied to the entire Word of God.

    God says what He means, and means what He says.

    Jesus said that we should become as a child. Even a child can understand the Truth of God. It's when we become adults that we become so self willed we fail to apply simple childlike faith.

    Luke 10:21
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    Some folks just know too much. It prevents them from relying on God as a child would in simple faith.

    Proverbs 3:5,6
    Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

    One of the first verses I learned when I got saved. It says so much.
  5. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 16:271 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    By extension, that same idea can be applied to the entire Word of God.

    God says what He means, and means what He says.

    Jesus said that we should become as a child. Even a child can understand the Truth of God. It's when we become adults that we become so self willed we fail to apply simple childlike faith.

    Luke 10:21
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced ...[text shortened]... shall direct thy paths.

    One of the first verses I learned when I got saved. It says so much.
    When I hear so many sophisticated and learned arguments from athiests and agnostics, from Roman politics, Greek philosophy, Quantum physics, Biology, church history and how well thought out some of them can be, I am humbled before God.

    I say its a miracle that I actually believe the words of the Bible. And I am very thankful that He gave me the ability to believe His word.

    The most vital things in life are available. Suppose we each had to master a higher degree in chemistry before we could drink a glass of water. Imagine if we had to be an post graduate on gases before we could take a breath.

    I think no one can be more wide open and just as the One who said "Whoseover believes ...".

    Faith leaves nothing for any man to baost in. Nothing of human pride is left to brag before God as to what SELF has accomplished.

    In John 11, why do you think " Jesus wept" ?

    I think He wept not so much because of the death of Lazarus. I think He wept because of all the human opinions that were coming out and the lack of simple faith in His Father.
  6. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 16:361 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    "Then they took the stone away. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the crowd standing around, I said it, that they may believe that You have sent Me.

    And when He has said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, [b] LAZARUS, COME OUT!


    And he wh ...[text shortened]... handkerchief.

    Jesus said to them, Loose him and let him go." (John 11:41-44 my emphasis)[/b]
    I love it when the secular world tries to give credence to the miracles in the Bible without giving them supernatural sources. For example, I saw a documentary the other day that tried to explain away the miracles. I think one miracle was the parting of the Red Sea by Moses. They gave all kinds of far out theories about volcanic eruptions and such to explain how the waters could have been low enough for them to cross. Then there was the bit about the ark of the covenant. They said it has certain "properties" that could have been explained by the way it was constructed that appeared to give it "powers". No doubt, in the case of Lazurous, he was simply mistaken for being dead and placed in the tomb. No doubt, he ate worms and had a flowing stream of water in the tomb to keep him alive.

    I think the major reason for this is that the Bible has so many truths in it, especially historical truth that they know to be true. Thereofore, there is a certain amount of respect for the facts therein.
  7. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 16:54
    Originally posted by whodey
    I love it when the secular world tries to give credence to the miracles in the Bible without giving them supernatural sources. For example, I saw a documentary the other day that tried to explain away the miracles. I think one miracle was the parting of the Red Sea by Moses. They gave all kinds of far out theories about volcanic eruptions and such to expla ...[text shortened]... ey know to be true. Thereofore, there is a certain amount of respect for the facts therein.
    You can see that it was necessary for God to do a great enough number of miracles to attest to His power.

    Had He done two or three the human mind could explain them away. By adding more the testimony leaves us with having to make a choice to believe or not.

    At the same time there are chapters of the Bible that go on and on with no particualr miraculous event.

    In the "recovery" books about the history of the remnant returning from Babylon there is not much miraculous happening - Haggai, Nehemiah, Ezra. Zechariah has some unusual visions.
  8. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 17:03
    Originally posted by josephw
    By extension, that same idea can be applied to the entire Word of God.

    God says what He means, and means what He says.

    Jesus said that we should become as a child. Even a child can understand the Truth of God. It's when we become adults that we become so self willed we fail to apply simple childlike faith.

    Luke 10:21
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced ...[text shortened]... shall direct thy paths.

    One of the first verses I learned when I got saved. It says so much.
    ===================================
    Luke 10:21
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
    ====================================


    Notice also how He indicates that it will be more tolerable for some of the Old Testament societies that were judged than it will be for latter societies which rejected Christ's gospel:

    "I say to you that it will be more tolerable for Sodom in that day than for that city.

    Woe to you, Chorazi! Woe to you Bethsaida! For if the works of power which took place in you had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and asjes.

    Yet it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.

    And you Capernaum, who have been exalted to heaven, to Hades you will be brought down." (Luke 10:12-15)


    One of the implications to me is that Christ's personality was so consistent with His works of power that we are less excused in rejecting His miracles. He performed the miraculous. But no one ever spoke or taught as He did either.

    The power of His acts is consistent with the power of His teaching. Somehow these latter cities had less excuse to disbelieve than Sodom, Sidon, Tyre at the preaching of the prophets sent to them.
  9. Subscriberdivegeester
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    20 Dec '09 19:42
    The account of Lazarus is one of my favourite pieces in the Bible, not specifically because of the miracle itself, but because of the reactions of the other people around Jesus beforehand. The disciples were anxious for Jesus to attend but he delayed ALLOWING death and corruption to have an apparent victory. He wept at the unbelief of those who challenged him "if you had been here…"

    But Jesus is the mind of God and God is not working on a restoration level he is working on a resurrection level. I think there is a opportunity for realising the mind of God for the whole of creation in this short but very significant Biblical event.
  10. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 22:24
    Originally posted by jaywill
    When I hear so many sophisticated and learned arguments from athiests and agnostics, from Roman politics, Greek philosophy, Quantum physics, Biology, church history and how well thought out some of them can be, I am humbled before God.

    I say its a miracle that I actually believe the words of the Bible. And I am very thankful that He gave me the ability t ...[text shortened]... l the human [b]opinions
    that were coming out and the lack of simple faith in His Father.[/b]
    I agree.

    If I were the only man on the face of the earth like Jesus, without sin, surrounded by so much faithlessness, I would weep too.

    Now, I cry because of my own faithlessness.
  11. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 22:441 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I love it when the secular world tries to give credence to the miracles in the Bible without giving them supernatural sources. For example, I saw a documentary the other day that tried to explain away the miracles. I think one miracle was the parting of the Red Sea by Moses. They gave all kinds of far out theories about volcanic eruptions and such to expla ey know to be true. Thereofore, there is a certain amount of respect for the facts therein.
    1 Corinthians 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    You know, some say that spiritual discernment means having the Holy Spirit indwelling so that one can understand spiritual truths, but I don't think that's what this verse is saying. I believe it means having the ability to appraise the things of the Spirit of God.

    The unregenerated can certainly hear, know, and understand truth, but without the Spirit they are unable to Spiritually discern(appraise) truth.

    So they are only able to look for "natural" explanations.
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    20 Dec '09 22:481 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    I agree.

    If I were the only man on the face of the earth like Jesus, without sin, surrounded by so much faithlessness, I would weep too.

    Now, I cry because of my own faithlessness.
    some very perplexing question trouble me about the account.

    1. If Lazarus was a good man, which he seems to have been, and he had died, which evidently he had, why had not he ascended to heaven?

    2. If he had ascended to heaven, why bring him back to die a second time?

    3. why indeed was Christ crying?

    4. what indeed did Christ mean, by stating that our friend Lazarus is sleeping?

    are we not permitted to ask these questions or must we simply blindly accept it as non thinking robots as the born again christians would have us do? making no inquiry to satisfy our Biblical understanding and contributing to our over all understanding of the character of God and of Christ. Surely those who are recipients of Gods spirit can answer these things, even as Jospeh himself has stated.
  13. Joined
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    20 Dec '09 23:522 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    some very perplexing question trouble me about the account.

    1. If Lazarus was a good man, which he seems to have been, and he had died, which evidently he had, why had not he ascended to heaven?

    2. If he had ascended to heaven, why bring him back to die a second time?

    3. why indeed was Christ crying?

    4. what indeed did Christ mean, by ...[text shortened]... se who are recipients of Gods spirit can answer these things, even as Jospeh himself has stated.
    Of course it's alright to ask questions. But why stop there? I don't think God intended for His Word to be misunderstood. So when an answer comes, why not accept it in faith?

    Let me see if I can give a reasonable answer to the best of my ability.

    #1 At the time that Lazarus died people were not going to heaven. By that I mean, nowhere in the "old testament" will you find any promise from God that when one died they would go to heaven. Going to heaven is a new phenomenon attributed to the apostle Paul, and was not told about in the old testament. Except for Enoch and that other guy. I forget his name right off.
    Old testament saints went to paradise, or Abraham's bosom. The promise to the old testament saints is the resurrection in the Kingdom when it is established at the second coming.

    #2 Lazarus didn't die and go to heaven. Someday I intend to ask Lazarus what it was like to die, go to paradise, and be risen from the dead and then die again.

    #3 I'm sure it wasn't because He was a pansy. And I'm sure it wasn't because He was afraid that when He called Lazarus forth it wouldn't happen. From the context it appears that Jesus wept for those that were there, and perhaps because of their balling like a bunch of faithless sinners.

    #4 If you're referring to His answer to His disciples, Jesus eventually told them plainly that Lazarus was dead.
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    21 Dec '09 00:081 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    Of course it's alright to ask questions. But why stop there? I don't think God intended for His Word to be misunderstood. So when an answer comes, why not accept it in faith?

    Let me see if I can give a reasonable answer to the best of my ability.

    #1 At the time that Lazarus died people were not going to heaven. By that I mean, nowhere in the "old testa s answer to His disciples, Jesus eventually told them plainly that Lazarus was dead.
    ok, so lets get this,

    1. Lazarus went to paradise? and or Abrahams Bosom (must be quite big)

    2. Going to heaven is a relatively new phenomena, and all those who died prior to Christ went to 'paradise and /or Abrahams bosom'.

    3. Jesus brought Lazarus back from paradise to die a second time?

    4. Lazarus was not really dead, he was in paradise?
  15. Joined
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    21 Dec '09 00:19
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ok, so lets get this,

    1. Lazarus went to paradise? and or Abrahams Bosom (must be quite big)

    2. Going to heaven is a relatively new phenomena, and all those who died prior to Christ went to 'paradise and /or Abrahams bosom'.

    3. Jesus brought Lazarus back from paradise to die a second time?

    4. Lazarus was not really dead, he was in paradise?
    What are you driving at?
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