18 May '14 10:13

Just a thought.

Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?

Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?

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Cape Town18 May '14 12:38

No, universal truths, are by definition, universally true. You might argue that the value of pi is not a universal truth, but you cannot claim that universal truths are changeable.*Originally posted by divegeester***Leaving aside the god element, why is the value of pi a universal truth? Aren't universal "truths" changeable in extreme cosmic circumstances.**

And the value of pi possibly depends on certain axioms but not on cosmic circumstances, so it is not changeable in extreme cosmic circumstances.

If the axioms are false, then the value of pi would not change. In fact, I believe the value of pi is actually not dependent on any axioms whatsoever, but rather solely on definitions. So it may not even be a 'truth' at all, but rather a definition.- Joined
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Isle of Misfit Toys18 May '14 14:34

Why would God 'need' to change the value of pi?*Originally posted by wolfgang59***Just a thought.**

Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?

The value of pi would automatically change if some other laws of physics were changed. It's just a ratio of two numbers. If the ratio changed due to other changes, then pi would change. I see no other reason.- Joined
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Cosmopolis18 May '14 14:491 edit

pi is defined as the ratio of a circle's circumference to it's diameter in Euclidean geometry, as such it is a mathematical object and doesn't depend particularly on the laws of physics.*Originally posted by Suzianne***Why would God 'need' to change the value of pi?**

The value of pi would automatically change if some other laws of physics were changed. It's just a ratio of two numbers. If the ratio changed due to other changes, then pi would change. I see no other reason.- Joined
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Cape Town18 May '14 16:031 edit

If pi is, as I believe, nothing more than a direct consequence of definitions with no axioms involved, one could equally ask the question "can an omnipotent being change the value of '2' "?*Originally posted by DeepThought***pi is defined as the ratio of a circle's circumference to it's diameter in Euclidean geometry, as such it is a mathematical object and doesn't depend particularly on the laws of physics.**

The question is bordering on being incoherent. What would it even mean if he changed the value of '2' to say '2.5'?- Joined
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Account suspended18 May '14 16:14

then 1 would = 1.25 so transfer that to my bank account =loads more money*Originally posted by twhitehead***If pi is, as I believe, nothing more than a direct consequence of definitions with no axioms involved, one could equally ask the question "can an omnipotent being change the value of '2' "?**

The question is bordering on being incoherent. What would it even mean if he changed the value of '2' to say '2.5'?- Joined
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18 May '14 16:34

Related question: does an omniscient being know the exact numeric value of pi? (Say, in base 10.)*Originally posted by wolfgang59***Just a thought.**

Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?

BTW, most people think of pi in its geometric sense but it is also the numeric value of a mathematical series expansion. More than one series expansion, actually.

Here's one: PI/4 = 1/1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + ...

or PI = 4(1/1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + ...)

alternating + and - and using odd integers.

http://math2.org/math/constants/pi.htm- Joined
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bigdogghouse.com/RHP- Joined
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Cape Town18 May '14 17:13

Again, I think, an incoherent question pi does not have an 'exact value' in base 10. Its an irrational number. Pi is exact, but cannot be expressed exactly in base 10.*Originally posted by JS357***Related question: does an omniscient being know the exact numeric value of pi? (Say, in base 10.)**- Joined
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bigdogghouse.com/RHP18 May '14 17:53

I thought it COULD be exactly expressed in base 10 (or any base, really) so long as you use an infinite number of digits.*Originally posted by twhitehead***Again, I think, an incoherent question pi does not have an 'exact value' in base 10. Its an irrational number. Pi is exact, but cannot be expressed exactly in base 10.**- Joined
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Cape Town18 May '14 17:581 edit

And that is the problem. There is no such thing as using exactly an infinite number of digits.*Originally posted by BigDoggProblem***I thought it COULD be exactly expressed in base 10 (or any base, really) so long as you use an infinite number of digits.**

Its like saying 'you could count to infinity if you counted all the integers'. Its incoherent because there is not actual number called 'infinity'.- Joined
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18 May '14 17:59

It can be expressed exactly in base pi, in which case it is 10. Right?*Originally posted by twhitehead***Again, I think, an incoherent question pi does not have an 'exact value' in base 10. Its an irrational number. Pi is exact, but cannot be expressed exactly in base 10.**

In any base, the base is expressible as 10. I think.ðŸ™„- Joined
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Cape Town18 May '14 18:021 edit

Yes, so both of us know the exact value of pi in base pi.*Originally posted by JS357***It can be expressed exactly in base pi, in which case it is 10. Right?**

In any base, the base is expressible as 10. I think.ðŸ™„

For another interesting irrational base see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base#Representing_irrational_numbers_of_note_as_golden_ratio_base_numbers