1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    18 May '14 10:13
    Just a thought.
    Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?
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    18 May '14 10:43
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Just a thought.
    Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?
    Leaving aside the god element, why is the value of pi a universal truth? Aren't universal "truths" changeable in extreme cosmic circumstances.
  3. Standard memberredbarons
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    18 May '14 11:01
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Leaving aside the god element, why is the value of pi a universal truth? Aren't universal "truths" changeable in extreme cosmic circumstances.
    my wife constantly questions the value and size of pie be it apple or pork
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    18 May '14 12:38
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Leaving aside the god element, why is the value of pi a universal truth? Aren't universal "truths" changeable in extreme cosmic circumstances.
    No, universal truths, are by definition, universally true. You might argue that the value of pi is not a universal truth, but you cannot claim that universal truths are changeable.
    And the value of pi possibly depends on certain axioms but not on cosmic circumstances, so it is not changeable in extreme cosmic circumstances.
    If the axioms are false, then the value of pi would not change. In fact, I believe the value of pi is actually not dependent on any axioms whatsoever, but rather solely on definitions. So it may not even be a 'truth' at all, but rather a definition.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 May '14 14:34
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Just a thought.
    Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?
    Why would God 'need' to change the value of pi?

    The value of pi would automatically change if some other laws of physics were changed. It's just a ratio of two numbers. If the ratio changed due to other changes, then pi would change. I see no other reason.
  6. Standard memberDeepThought
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    18 May '14 14:491 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Why would God 'need' to change the value of pi?

    The value of pi would automatically change if some other laws of physics were changed. It's just a ratio of two numbers. If the ratio changed due to other changes, then pi would change. I see no other reason.
    pi is defined as the ratio of a circle's circumference to it's diameter in Euclidean geometry, as such it is a mathematical object and doesn't depend particularly on the laws of physics.
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    18 May '14 16:031 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    pi is defined as the ratio of a circle's circumference to it's diameter in Euclidean geometry, as such it is a mathematical object and doesn't depend particularly on the laws of physics.
    If pi is, as I believe, nothing more than a direct consequence of definitions with no axioms involved, one could equally ask the question "can an omnipotent being change the value of '2' "?
    The question is bordering on being incoherent. What would it even mean if he changed the value of '2' to say '2.5'?
  8. Standard memberredbarons
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    18 May '14 16:14
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    If pi is, as I believe, nothing more than a direct consequence of definitions with no axioms involved, one could equally ask the question "can an omnipotent being change the value of '2' "?
    The question is bordering on being incoherent. What would it even mean if he changed the value of '2' to say '2.5'?
    then 1 would = 1.25 so transfer that to my bank account =loads more money
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    18 May '14 16:34
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Just a thought.
    Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?
    Related question: does an omniscient being know the exact numeric value of pi? (Say, in base 10.)

    BTW, most people think of pi in its geometric sense but it is also the numeric value of a mathematical series expansion. More than one series expansion, actually.

    Here's one: PI/4 = 1/1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + ...

    or PI = 4(1/1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + ...)

    alternating + and - and using odd integers.

    http://math2.org/math/constants/pi.htm
  10. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    18 May '14 17:13
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Just a thought.
    Surely omnipotence cannot be extended to changing universal truths?
    Omnipotent can be defined as "can do anything logically possible". Problem solved.
  11. Cape Town
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    18 May '14 17:13
    Originally posted by JS357
    Related question: does an omniscient being know the exact numeric value of pi? (Say, in base 10.)
    Again, I think, an incoherent question pi does not have an 'exact value' in base 10. Its an irrational number. Pi is exact, but cannot be expressed exactly in base 10.
  12. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    18 May '14 17:53
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Again, I think, an incoherent question pi does not have an 'exact value' in base 10. Its an irrational number. Pi is exact, but cannot be expressed exactly in base 10.
    I thought it COULD be exactly expressed in base 10 (or any base, really) so long as you use an infinite number of digits.
  13. Cape Town
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    18 May '14 17:581 edit
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    I thought it COULD be exactly expressed in base 10 (or any base, really) so long as you use an infinite number of digits.
    And that is the problem. There is no such thing as using exactly an infinite number of digits.
    Its like saying 'you could count to infinity if you counted all the integers'. Its incoherent because there is not actual number called 'infinity'.
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    18 May '14 17:59
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Again, I think, an incoherent question pi does not have an 'exact value' in base 10. Its an irrational number. Pi is exact, but cannot be expressed exactly in base 10.
    It can be expressed exactly in base pi, in which case it is 10. Right?

    In any base, the base is expressible as 10. I think.🙄
  15. Cape Town
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    18 May '14 18:021 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    It can be expressed exactly in base pi, in which case it is 10. Right?

    In any base, the base is expressible as 10. I think.🙄
    Yes, so both of us know the exact value of pi in base pi.

    For another interesting irrational base see:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base#Representing_irrational_numbers_of_note_as_golden_ratio_base_numbers
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