1. Illinois
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    07 Jun '07 17:53
    "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt" (Hebrews 6:4-6).

    "‘Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved" (Matthew 24:9-13).

    "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘The dog turns back to its own vomit’, and, ‘The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud'" (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    "I am giving you these instructions, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies made earlier about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, having faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith" (1Timothy 1:18-19).

    "Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:58).

    "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

    "For we have become partners of Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall through such disobedience as theirs" (Hebrews 3:14, 4:11).

    "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill’, and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

    "But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’, and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead" (James 2:14-26).

    "‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers"" (Matthew 7:21-23).

    "He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit" (John 15:2).

    "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" (Galatians 5:1).

    ____________________________________________________________________

    "Without exception, every verse or passage you have quoted is being misinterpreted and/or applied incorrectly." -- FreakyKBH

    "Please, show me how. I would very much like to understand where I've gone wrong (assuming I have). After I return from vacation, I will respond in kind." -- epiphinehas

    While you could pick one that you consider to be the most pesky, it's much more profitable to begin with the first principles; namely, how is salvation wrought?" -- FreakyKBH
  2. Illinois
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    07 Jun '07 21:074 edits
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    While you could pick one that you consider to be the most pesky, it's much more profitable to begin with the first principles; namely, how is salvation wrought?
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    Salvation is the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and all who believe in him will inherit everlasting life and will not perish. As the above passage points out, salvation is not the result of works, but a free gift, so that none may boast of having been worthy to receive it. Amen.

    My intention is not to undermine the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I don't mean to insinuate that after having once received salvation through Christ, a person must thereafter perfectly obey the law or risk losing one's salvation. Such a teaching is contrary to the gospel, which Paul makes more than adequately clear in Galatians 3. What I am saying is not contrary to the gospel:

    A believer in Jesus Christ, instead of being subject to the law of Moses, is now subject to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1-2). We are no longer subject to the law of sin and death, but we are nevertheless subject to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; likewise there are definite consequences for disobeying the law of the Spirit as there are for disobeying the law of sin and death (which I will address later).

    What does the bible say about the law of the Spirit? Namely, that the Spirit is contrary to the flesh, and therefore, the 'law' of the Spirit is the putting "to death the deeds of [our] sinful nature" (Romans 8:13). And the fruit of obeying the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus are presented in Galatians 5: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires" (22-24). For further illustration of this, consider the following passage: "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law" (Galatians 5:16-18).

    We are not subject to the law of sin and death, if we are subject to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which is a putting to death of the deeds of the flesh, the fruit of which there is no law against: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. But what of he who after having believed, does not obey the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and so does not put to death the deeds of the flesh, and consequently bears no fruit of the Spirit? Is such a person's salvation nevertheless safe? Are the many warnings throughout scripture against such a lifestyle without portent?

    Does not Christ refer to such in Matthew when he says, "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot" (Matthew 5:13). Or again in Matthew, speaking of the fruit of the Spirit: "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:18-20). And yet further, "He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit" (John 15:2). Couple this with what we know from James 2, that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24), and it becomes clear that a faith without obedience to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is a 'dead' faith (salt that has lost its taste; a tree which does not bear good fruit).

    In light of all this let us reconsider the warning:

    "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘The dog turns back to its own vomit’, and, ‘The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud'" (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    "To turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them." This holy commandment is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which we must obey in order to be free from the law of sin and death, and to be justified. It is not enough to simply believe, since "even the demons believe—and shudder" (James 2:19).

    Yes, salvation can be lost.
  3. Joined
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    08 Jun '07 09:33
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    Salvation is the work of Jesus Christ on the cross an ...[text shortened]... elieve—and shudder" (James 2:19).

    Yes, salvation can be lost.
    Good grief.....
  4. Joined
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    08 Jun '07 11:55
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [bYes, salvation can be lost.[/b]
    Correct. The parable of the sower makes it clear a person can change their mind. I recently read that statistically something like 90% of the people making a decision for Christ (i.e. they were told they were forever "saved"😉 leave the church within a short time. Larry Flint (Hustler magazine) “made a decision for Christ” but was unwilling to give up his porn empire and shortly recanted his decision. I heard him say in a in a radio interview that he preferred the money and the sex. If you can’t change your mind the parable makes absolutely no sense.
  5. Standard memberblakbuzzrd
    Buzzardus Maximus
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    08 Jun '07 14:16
    Yeah, but FreakyKBH asked how salvation is wrought, though, and in the context of discussing foundational elements of salvation.

    The first question to ask: "if salvation is wrought, who is its wright?"

    I read his comment to suggest that you should start your analysis with the the initial work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the soon-to-be-believer.

    That is, in the theology I used to subscribe to, it is first the work of the HS to plant faith in the heart of the believer. The HS enables what was impossible before. Then the believer responds in faith, and that "not of [himself/herself]; it is the gift of God."

    In other words God owns the whole operation, and since there's no getting away from him when he grabs you, you are actually incapable of losing your salvation.

    Does that make sense? FreakyKBH will of course have to confirm whether or not I interpreted his question appropriately.
  6. Standard memberNemesio
    Ursulakantor
    Pittsburgh, PA
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    08 Jun '07 14:18
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    Good grief.....
    Another mindless post.
  7. Joined
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    08 Jun '07 15:01
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Another mindless post.
    And yours wasn't much better buddy.....
  8. Illinois
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    08 Jun '07 15:152 edits
    Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
    Yeah, but FreakyKBH asked how salvation is wrought, though, and in the context of discussing foundational elements of salvation.

    The first question to ask: "if salvation is wrought, who is its wright?"

    I read his comment to suggest that you should start your analysis with the the initial work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the soon-to-be-believ KBH will of course have to confirm whether or not I interpreted his question appropriately.
    In other words God owns the whole operation, and since there's no getting away from him when he grabs you, you are actually incapable of losing your salvation.

    He does indeed own the whole operation, yet the operation cannot continue without the cooperation of the individual being saved. If a person does not want to obey God (for whatever reason), there's nothing God can do to make that person obey. Yes, the Lord can give assurances in the spirit, convict people's hearts, and draw men to repentance, but at no time does he effectively hijack a person's will.

    That is, in the theology I used to subscribe to, it is first the work of the HS to plant faith in the heart of the believer. The HS enables what was impossible before. Then the believer responds in faith, and that "not of [himself/herself]; it is the gift of God."

    The key here is that the Spirit of God enables what was impossible before, obedience to God's will. But God enabling a person to respond in faith in no way implies that God makes a person respond in faith, just that such a decision is introduced to the realm of possibility. I used to subscribe to that type of theology (Calvinistic), but I've found it is inconsistent with scripture. "The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). If the Lord's desire is for all to come to repentance and he has the power to override any body's freewill, then why are so many lost?

    The Calvinist position is that God chose only a limited few to begin with; but if that is so, then it is contrary to "God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

    The truth is, God does not save people at the expense of their freewill. And instead of arbitrarily choosing specific individuals who are to be saved (an elect), God preordains the specific lifestyle of the elect ("Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world for us to be holy and unblemished before him in love" -Ephesians 4:1), which all men are capable of inheriting through the power of the Holy Spirit, in so far as they are willing.
  9. Joined
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    09 Jun '07 02:06
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    Salvation is the work of Jesus Christ on the cross an ...[text shortened]... elieve—and shudder" (James 2:19).

    Yes, salvation can be lost.
    The gift of eternal life. It's free and it's eternal.
    Losing one's salvation is an age old argument.
    The way I see it, if we can't do anything to earn it, or maintain it, what could we do to lose it?

    1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    And what about the dual nature? We have the old man, the Adamic nature still with us in our flesh, and the new nature, the Spirit of Christ, which is the new man. Why go through all the trouble of saving us and imputing the righteousness of Christ to us, just to take it away because some dunderhead doesn't understand that he is "complete" in Christ?
  10. Joined
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    09 Jun '07 02:08
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Another mindless post.
    Is that a self imposed proclamation?
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    09 Jun '07 02:581 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    The gift of eternal life. It's free and it's eternal.
    Losing one's salvation is an age old argument.
    The way I see it, if we can't do anything to earn it, or maintain it, what could we do to lose it?

    1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    And what about the dual nature ...[text shortened]... take it away because some dunderhead doesn't understand that he is "complete" in Christ?
    And what about the dual nature? We have the old man, the Adamic nature still with us in our flesh, and the new nature, the Spirit of Christ, which is the new man. Why go through all the trouble of saving us and imputing the righteousness of Christ to us, just to take it away because some dunderhead doesn't understand that he is "complete" in Christ?

    You know, I come from a wholly different paradigm—with which both Freaky and Epiphinehas are aware, through past arguments—and which I only mention because it surely biases my whole viewpoint on this singular question. But—

    Until I read what you just wrote, I would’ve found myself in agreement with Epiphinehas on this one.

    [Deletion of my whole rambling exploration of this in terms of my own religious philosophy.]

    I think you’ve hit a major nail right on the head.
  12. Illinois
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    09 Jun '07 15:271 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    The gift of eternal life. It's free and it's eternal.
    Losing one's salvation is an age old argument.
    The way I see it, if we can't do anything to earn it, or maintain it, what could we do to lose it?

    1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    And what about the dual nature ...[text shortened]... take it away because some dunderhead doesn't understand that he is "complete" in Christ?
    I understand the appeal of 'once saved always saved' theology, but where is it expressly confirmed in the gospel? Where does the bible expressly indicate that salvation once gained cannot be lost? Implicit arguments, it seems, are all one has when defending the 'once saved always saved' gospel; meanwhile the bible expressly states in no uncertain terms to the contrary on many occasions (at least enough to cause one to take note).

    What the 'once saved always saved' gospel is really saying is that being a Christian has nothing to do with the kind of person you are. Do you feel comfortable teaching people that? Is not regeneration as important as justification in the process of redemption? Surely James makes this clear when he links the two inextricably when he calls a faith without works 'dead'.

    Consider these two passages, which are just two examples underscoring the importance of an unwavering faith. Note that the stern warnings involved are directed at those who believe in Jesus Christ. On what grounds can you discount their portent? --

    "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

    "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off" (Romans 11:22).
  13. Joined
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    09 Jun '07 17:39
    Originally posted by josephw
    The gift of eternal life. It's free and it's eternal.
    Losing one's salvation is an age old argument.
    The way I see it, if we can't do anything to earn it, or maintain it, what could we do to lose it?

    1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    And what about the dual nature ...[text shortened]... take it away because some dunderhead doesn't understand that he is "complete" in Christ?
    But one can reject it by continuing to follow the Adamic nature. If one does not overcome the Adamic nature and continues to work iniquity, one is only crying 'Lord, Lord' and not doing the will of the Father.


    Matthew 7:21-23
    Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
  14. Standard memberRemoved
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    10 Jun '07 04:40
    Originally posted by josephw
    The gift of eternal life. It's free and it's eternal.
    Losing one's salvation is an age old argument.
    The way I see it, if we can't do anything to earn it, or maintain it, what could we do to lose it?

    1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    And what about the dual nature ...[text shortened]... take it away because some dunderhead doesn't understand that he is "complete" in Christ?
    Right on! Eterrnal or "everlasting" means just that! Jesus didn't give conditional nor temporary life. This arguement is nuts!
  15. Illinois
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    10 Jun '07 05:19
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Right on! Eterrnal or "everlasting" means just that! Jesus didn't give conditional nor temporary life. This arguement is nuts!
    Yours is an implicit argument. Please, if you have biblical grounds for denying the portent of the scriptures presented in this thread, by all means bring them to the table. So far everyone who defends your position has neglected the scriptures which are expressly contrary to it. The position I am defending is clearly represented in the word, whereas yours is implied. Should such logical implications trump what is expressly stated, or is there a deeper understanding of God's salvation yet to be grasped?
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