1. Shetland Primary
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    24 May '11 07:52
    Assuming a supernatural God exists as the Bible claims. Would we be able to use 'Science' to verify His existence?
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    24 May '11 08:201 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Assuming a supernatural God exists as the Bible claims. Would we be able to use 'Science' to verify His existence?
    Assuming you mean literally everything as the bible claims, then that will mean that prayers actually do get answered. Therefore, science will be able to confirm this by the fact that success in prayer works better than chance.

    EDIT: As for your initial question. Science will not be able to find all the answers (and a decent scientist will never claim to be able to do so). However, this doesn't automatically mean that answers can be found by other means. Science is the best way to find answers.
  3. Cape Town
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    24 May '11 09:06
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Assuming a supernatural God exists as the Bible claims. Would we be able to use 'Science' to verify His existence?
    That depends on what you mean by 'supernatural' and what properties the god in question has.
    If he is a tiny 1cm square cube on the far side of Jupiter then science may never verify his existence. If however he interferes with the universe in a significant way (as does the God described in the Bible) then it seems likely that science could, in theory, verify his existence.

    In fact, I would say that science long ago verified that the God as described in the Bible does not exist, but then again, that depends on how you choose to interpret the Bible (ie the Bible describes infinitely many possible gods depending on interpretation).
  4. Shetland Primary
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    24 May '11 09:42
    Originally posted by lausey
    Assuming you mean literally everything as the bible claims, then that will mean that prayers actually do get answered. Therefore, science will be able to confirm this by the fact that success in prayer works better than chance.

    EDIT: As for your initial question. Science will not be able to find all the answers (and a decent scientist will never claim to b ...[text shortened]... tically mean that answers can be found by other means. Science is the best way to find answers.
    How would you use science to prove that the person praying was a true believer?
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    24 May '11 09:55
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    How would you use science to prove that the person praying was a true believer?
    That question doesn't even make sense. What characteristics define a "true believer"?
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    24 May '11 12:48
    Originally posted by lausey
    That question doesn't even make sense. What characteristics define a "true believer"?
    If a person asserts that they believe then they are a believer. The beliefs are only assertions after all.
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    24 May '11 13:46
    Originally posted by FMF
    If a person asserts that they believe then they are a believer. The beliefs are only assertions after all.
    Ok, as I suspected. Although in the context of dj2becker's question, he appears to be implying that when prayer fails, it is because they aren't "true believers".

    Someone can state that they have followed Christianity, and went to church every Sunday. They could be part of a scientific experiment to see if prayer actually works. When it doesn't, someone could just ask, "Ahhh, but do you REALLY believe?".

    It is something completely unfalsifiable, and therefore has no place in science.

    The existence of "true belief" is therefore speculation.

    Assuming that there is such thing as "true belief", which means that prayer WILL work for them, then if, say, a particular disease will cause a 10% chance of survival, and 1000 people had this disease and they do not pray, then they should be approximately 100 that survives.

    If 1000 people do the same experiment and do pray. At least some of them have "true belief", and more than 100 should survive.

    If this kind of thing was done over and over again, and prayer was to work in some causes, you still will get a success rate better than pure chance. Unless, of course, you conclude that EVERYONE who participates in the experiment never has "true belief". This is the typical goalpost shifting that often occurs to justify their religion, which does render the question meaningless.
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    24 May '11 13:55
    Originally posted by lausey
    That question doesn't even make sense. What characteristics define a "true believer"?
    I think, if we do an 'efficacy of prayer' study with a large enough sample size, then we should get a reasonable number of answered prayers. If prayer actually works beyond chance, then there will be a higher proportion of 'true' believers in the 'successful' group. Then do a 2nd study, comparing the 'successful' group with another random sample. You will not only be able to prove the efficacy of prayer and therefore the existence of the God of the 'successful' people but the 2nd study should also be able to determine who are the 'true' believers.

    I'm not a statistician but I am sure something like the above suggestion should answer the questions.

    --- Penguin
  9. Cape Town
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    24 May '11 15:25
    Essentially, if God has a defined effect on the universe, then that effect is subject to scientific scrutiny. If he has no visible effect on the universe then who cares if he exists or not?
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    25 May '11 09:42
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That depends on what you mean by 'supernatural' and what properties the god in question has.
    If he is a tiny 1cm square cube on the far side of Jupiter then science may never verify his existence. If however he interferes with the universe in a significant way (as does the God described in the Bible) then it seems likely that science could, in theory, ve ...[text shortened]... the Bible (ie the Bible describes infinitely many possible gods depending on interpretation).
    In fact, I would say that science long ago verified that the God as described in the Bible does not exist.

    How exactly did science do that?
  11. Shetland Primary
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    25 May '11 09:45
    Originally posted by lausey
    Ok, as I suspected. Although in the context of dj2becker's question, he appears to be implying that when prayer fails, it is because they aren't "true believers".

    Someone can state that they have followed Christianity, and went to church every Sunday. They could be part of a scientific experiment to see if prayer actually works. When it doesn't, someone co ...[text shortened]... ten occurs to justify their religion, which does render the question meaningless.
    Are you saying that according to the Bible, God immediately answers every prayer that a believer prays? If so could you give me some scriptures that support this notion?
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    25 May '11 10:231 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Assuming a supernatural God exists as the Bible claims. Would we be able to use 'Science' to verify His existence?
    If a God has any effect on the universe, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to find evidence of his existence.

    Edit - Just saw that twhitehead said it earlier.
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    25 May '11 11:51
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Are you saying that according to the Bible, God immediately answers every prayer that a believer prays? If so could you give me some scriptures that support this notion?
    A non sequitur. Regardless of if the prayer is answered immediately or not, there should be still a statistical improvement for those people if prayer did actually work.
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    25 May '11 11:57
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Assuming a supernatural God exists as the Bible claims. Would we be able to use 'Science' to verify His existence?
    no it would not be possible, because God is a supernatural entity, science is concerned with what is observable (although there are many instances when dogma and conjecture pass for science) and that which is material, that is why all the exist/does not exist argument proffered by the atheists are utterly futile, for it cannot be proven, nor disproven.
  15. Shetland Primary
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    25 May '11 12:59
    Originally posted by lausey
    A non sequitur. Regardless of if the prayer is answered immediately or not, there should be still a statistical improvement for those people if prayer did actually work.
    If there were a statistical improvement, would that prove that God exists?
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