Case for Christ (Not Strobel)

Originally posted by Darfius
I don't think you understand the concept of hell. Hell is just the name for a place away from God completely.

Do you or do you not reject God?

I don't even know what "rejecting God" means.

I don't share your metaphysical beliefs mainly because they strike me as farfetched.

Does that qualify as rejecting God?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Actually, I want to ask you a question I once asked Muslim fundamentlist, who thought I was going to hell as a result of too much freethinking.

(Note that he thinks you are going to hell and you think he is going to hell, and either one or both of you is going to be wrong.)

How do you feel personally about my going to hell? Do you think it is a g ...[text shortened]... ot to believe what you do about God, would it be a good thing that God sends him or her to hell?

Does what I feel about it make it true or false?

Of course I would grieve if you went to hell as I would with my child.

But I'm wondering why it matters what any of us "feel" about the concept.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
So, let me get this straight. Billions of OTHER people, including innocents, have had since to put up with an imperfect world filled with suffering because of God decided that if Adam and Eve freely chose eat some fruit of a tree he would make the world imperfect thereafter, even though He has, at any moment, the power to make the world perfect again?

Should He make the world perfect again, and then after one of us messes up, make it imperfect again? It was perfect because God walked on it with us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God couldn't stand to be around them any longer.

So you want both to be able to sin and to have God with you? No can do. His rules, not mine.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Is hell, however you define it, the same thing as not accepting God, as you understand it, in the here and now?

This is what you said above, I believe.

Earth isn't away from God completely. Since you currently inhabit a place alongside God's children, He keeps it inhabitable. However, when you die, you go to a place where your suffering won't affect others.

Originally posted by Darfius
Should He make the world perfect again, and then after one of us messes up, make it imperfect again? It was perfect because God walked on it with us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God couldn't stand to be around them any longer.

So you want both to be able to sin and to have God with you? No can do. His rules, not mine.

Couldn't he just have avoided the whole imperfect thing? Why not just make perfect creatures that stay eternally in heaven? Why would a perfect God muddy his hands with imperfection?

Originally posted by Darfius
Should He make the world perfect again, and then after one of us messes up, make it imperfect again? It was perfect because God walked on it with us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God couldn't stand to be around them any longer.

So you want both to be able to sin and to have God with you? No can do. His rules, not mine.

It's the morality of such rules I question.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Couldn't he just have avoided the whole imperfect thing? Why not just make perfect creatures that stay eternally in heaven? Why would a perfect God muddy his hands with imperfection?

To be perfect, they'd have to never sin. To never sin, they would have to either be robots, or have the wisdom to see sin as folly. If He gave them this wisdom, their love for Him would be forced, and not true.

That's why I always stress love when speaking of God. It is His motivation for everything.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
It's the morality of such rules I question.

What is moral about wanting to both sin and have God with you? He is holy.

Originally posted by Darfius

Does what I feel about it make it true or false?

No.

Of course I would grieve if you went to hell as I would with my child.

It's reassuring that you're capable of empathy.


But I'm wondering why it matters what any of us "feel" about the concept.


So our empathy and grief for children and loved ones who don't accept what you believe Darfius--damned to hell by God for not believing it--is beside the point, is it Darfius?

Originally posted by Darfius
To be perfect, they'd have to never sin. To never sin, they would have to either be robots, or have the wisdom to see sin as folly. If He gave them this wisdom, their love for Him would be forced, and not true.

That's why I always stress love when speaking of God. It is His motivation for everything.

Does God freely love us, or is he forced to by his nature?

Originally posted by Darfius
What is moral about wanting to both sin and have God with you? He is holy.

By definition, God would be perfectly good and so forth.

But I question whether the God you describe, Darfius, is moral.

You think he is. I don't.

By definition, then, I think your don't believe in God.

And here is the simple reason: I don't think an eternity in hell for not believing what you do is remotely warranted.

And I believe any God deserving the name good would agree with me.

I know plenty people who are very moral, and good, and kind, who aren't persuaded by your fundamentalism either. It's not just about me.

No good God would send them to hell.

If you truly believe that he would, then your moral values are perverse. You are incapable of perceiving the value of simple human goodness, perferring a metaphysical monstrosity instead.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Originally posted by Darfius

[b]Does what I feel about it make it true or false?

No.

Of course I would grieve if you went to hell as I would with my child.

It's reassuring that you're capable of empathy.


But I'm wondering why it matters what any of us "feel" about the concept.


So our empathy and grief ...[text shortened]... eve Darfius--damned to hell by God for not believing it--is beside the point, is it Darfius?

[/b]

Not beside the point. Beside the fact. And my empathy should be apparent in that I'm trying to keep you from hell.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Does God freely love us, or is he forced to by his nature?

His nature is all loving. However, He freely chose to create us. So He is both forced and was a choice. Much like Christians will be when in Heaven. We've already made the choice here and when we get there, He will protect us (from sin) by making it forced, after being reassured it is our choice.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
By definition, God would be perfectly good and so forth.

But I question whether the God you describe, Darfius, is moral.

You think he is. I don't.

By definition, then, I think your don't believe in God.

And here is the simple reason: I don't think an eternity in hell for not believing what you do is remotely warranted.

And I believe ...[text shortened]... of perceiving the value of simple human goodness, perferring a metaphysical monstrosity instead.

So no one should go to hell? Hitler should have gone to Heaven? If God was like that, THEN I would be disgusted.

Originally posted by Darfius
So no one should go to hell? Hitler should have gone to Heaven? If God was like that, THEN I would be disgusted.

Hmm...Are you saying that if God, having revealed Himself in His
full Glory, spoke to Hitler at the day of his judgement, and said,
'You were a very sinful person, who did many evil things and caused
the greatest of evils in your lifetime. What do you have to say for
yourself?'

and Hitler responded, 'My dear Lord and God, I did not see clearly in
my time and I see now that I was depraved and evil and am not
worthy to even have once seen You and Your bounty but to spend the
rest of my days in eternal torment. I beg you to know my heart and
my contrition and to have mercy on me, the utmost of sinners.'

and if God saw that Hitler was truly repentant in his heart, that God
ought not to forgive him?

Nemesio