1. Standard memberRajk999
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    15 May '16 00:381 edit
    In another thread Checkbaiter quoted this:

    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    (Ephesians 3:2-3 KJV)


    I think his idea is that Christians are now not under any law ie not the Law of Moses and not the Law of Christ.

    Does any Christian have a comment on this and how it relates to this passage from Paul about those under no law?

    For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) (Romans 2:11-15 KJV)
  2. Standard membermenace71
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    15 May '16 01:37
    34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”


    Manny
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    15 May '16 02:56
    There are different Dispensations (or Administrations) in the bible. Without an understanding of them, the bible is full of contradictions.
    To the best of my knowledge, these are the different Administrations....


    1. Original Paradise (Creation of Adam and Eve to their Fall and banishment from Eden),

    2. Conscience (Fall to the Flood),

    3. Civil Government (Flood to the Mosaic Law),

    4. The Mosaic Law (the giving of the Law until Pentecost),

    5. The Administration of the Grace of God (from Pentecost until the Rapture),

    6.Tribulation (from the Rapture to the end of Armageddon),

    7.Millennial Kingdom (lasts 1,000 years),

    8.Everlasting Kingdom [Final Paradise] (will last forever).

    Without these Administrations, Christians become confused and don't know which laws to follow or not follow.
    Examples of God changing the rules abound. For example, when it comes to what to eat, in the Garden of Eden, God told Adam and Eve to eat plants only (Gen. 1:29).

    After the Flood, God changed the rules again and allowed man to eat meat also (Gen. 9:3), and He still allows us to eat meat today.

    Another example concerns the Sabbath. Before the Mosaic Law, there was no specific law concerning the Sabbath. When God gave the Law to Moses, He changed the rules and established a set Sabbath, and commanded that anyone who broke the Sabbath should be put to death (Exod. 31:14).
    Today, in the “Administration of the Grace of God” (Eph. 3:2), God has changed the rules again, and it is not a sin to work on the Sabbath (Rom. 14:5; Col. 2:16-17).

    A third example of God changing the rules involves animal sacrifice. Before the Mosaic Law, there was animal sacrifice, but it was not strictly enforced.
    When God gave the Mosaic Law, He gave lots of new rules about it, and commanded the death penalty for breaking some of them.
    Today, in the “Administration of the Grace of God” (Eph. 3:2), animal sacrifice has stopped because Jesus Christ was the one-time sacrifice for sin.

    When Believers are confused about the rules, they can be fooled. For example a believer can be told it is ok to have more than one wife Exodus 21:10.
    Can a Christian marry more than one wife today just because a verse in the Bible says it is all right?
    No, because we have to consider where the Bible says that, and to whom was God addressing that regulation.
    In the case of marriage, in the Old Testament, God allowed a man to have more than one wife. But now He has changed the rules and has a one-husband-to-one-wife rule (1 Cor. 7:2) and even says that if a person has more than one wife, he cannot be a leader in the Church (1 Tim. 3:2).
    God, for His own purposes and for our benefit, gave Christians grace in a way that He had not done before.
    That is why He says in 2 Corinthians that the administration of the Law has no glory now, in comparison to the glory that God has given the Church.

    What is this glory that God has given the Church, which is based on so much grace that God calls the very administration in which we live “the Administration of the Grace of God”?
    There are many aspects of the grace that God has given us, but a huge one is salvation by New Birth, and that salvation is permanent.(1 Peter 1:23 Eph 1:13,14)

    Another is the fullness of the gift of holy spirit, and all its nine manifestations (1 Cor. 12:7, 8, 9, 10 and 14:5).

    There is a lot of different theology about Dispensations. Some Theologians argue about how many Administrations there are, but there are good books that have been around for years, for anyone interested in learning more.
    One good one is "Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie" and is a free download if you google the title.

    Understanding Dispensation will help people understand that people are saved by grace and not works. We can then understand why in the gospels it seems like works were needed for salvation, and even then it was not permanent. But now, today we can rejoice reading and understanding verses like these....
    Eph 1:13-14
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
    NKJV
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    15 May '16 10:40
    Originally posted by menace71
    34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This ...[text shortened]... as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”


    Manny
    Manny ... youre back ! How does your quote relate to the new dispensation?
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    15 May '16 11:141 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    There are different Dispensations (or Administrations) in the bible. Without an understanding of them, the bible is full of contradictions.
    To the best of my knowledge, these are the different Administrations....


    1. Original Paradise (Creation of Adam and Eve to their Fall and banishment from Eden),

    2. Conscience (Fall to the Flood),

    ...[text shortened]... inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
    NKJV
    Well first of all 1 Cor 7:2 does not state that a man must have one wife at all. That is a false interpretation. The passage says every man must have his OWN wife. If I were to say that every man must have his OWN car there is nothing in that statement that limits the man to have one car. Im just using that to show that there is a whole load of falsity in the interpretation of the Bible.

    So here is the real issue. I notice that in your 8 dispensations with which I agree, the teachings of Jesus appear nowhere. Thats my only disagreement. If it does appear somewhere please tell me where you think it should be. Have you have booted out Jesus from the dispensations .. is he a nobody?

    Now if you pursue this discussion with me I can show you in plain simple english from the writings of Paul himself that the teachings, the doctrine and the commandments of Jesus Christ is what the New Dispensation [your #5] The Administration of Grace, is all about.

    Grace does not and cannot mean no laws or commandments as you seem to believe.
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    15 May '16 13:45
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Well first of all 1 Cor 7:2 does not state that a man must have one wife at all. That is a false interpretation. The passage says every man must have his OWN wife. If I were to say that every man must have his OWN car there is nothing in that statement that limits the man to have one car. Im just using that to show that there is a whole load of falsity in ...[text shortened]... is all about.

    Grace does not and cannot mean no laws or commandments as you seem to believe.
    Jesus comes in at #4.
    Here is the problem people will encounter who believe we are under Jesus commandments.
    They are part of the old Testament. Jesus was living in the OT.
    The day of Pentecost ushered in the New Covenant. People in the time of Jesus could not yet get born again.
    I know exactly what you will come back with. Nicodemus.
    But is that what the term "born again" meant in these verses?( John 3:3)
    If you look up the words in the gospels, it was "born from above".
    The word is "gennaō anothen" and unfortunately it was translated born again.
    It is used 5 times in John ( (John 3:3, 7, 31; John 19:11, 23).
    In the Epistles a different word is used which does mean "born again".

    “Born from above” is talking about the resurrection from the dead that will occur when God above puts His spirit in dead people who are then “born” from the grave.
    Saying, “born from the grave” is biblically accurate, because Isaiah 26:19 says that “the earth will give birth to her dead,” as if the earth is a big womb that gives birth to people at the resurrection (the KJV, which says the earth will “cast out” the dead, is not as clear as versions such as the ESV, NIV, or NASB, which have “give birth to.”

    But more importantly, people will have to resolve the verses that seem to say they will lose their salvation, vs the sections that say salvation is guaranteed (Eph 1:14, and many others).
    The words in the Epistles do not "supersede" the words of Jesus, they ARE the words of Jesus spoken through Paul.
    Before the Crucifixion, Jesus did not know all of the details that were to come.
    But if you believe Jesus is God, then comes even more confusion, because God knows everything.
    1 Cor 2:7-12
    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    9 But as it is written:

    "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
    Nor have entered into the heart of man
    The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

    10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
    NKJV
  7. Standard membermenace71
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    15 May '16 13:56
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Manny ... youre back ! How does your quote relate to the new dispensation?
    Not sure if it does have anything to do with dispensation..... Other than the law of God can be summed up with what Jesus said there..... I get the jist of the argument though it's works vs grace (faith) of course The apostle Paul breaks it down in the book of Romans for us to understand

    Manny
  8. Standard membermenace71
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    15 May '16 14:03
    I think there is a sense of cheap grace which is deceptive.....However If one has faith their actions will show.... This just echos the words of James...

    Manny
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    15 May '16 17:07
    Originally posted by menace71
    Not sure if it does have anything to do with dispensation..... Other than the law of God can be summed up with what Jesus said there..... I get the jist of the argument though it's works vs grace (faith) of course The apostle Paul breaks it down in the book of Romans for us to understand

    Manny
    No, what Checkabiter is saying that the teachings and commandments of Jesus are not longer applicable because we are not under the dispensation of Jesus, We are in another dispensation called the dispensation of grace. Those who follow Christ are going to be in some kind of difficulty according to Checkbaiter .. do you agree with him?
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    15 May '16 17:09
    Originally posted by menace71
    I think there is a sense of cheap grace which is deceptive.....However If one has faith their actions will show.... This just echos the words of James...

    Manny
    I think I know what you mean by "cheap grace", but grace is grace.
    All I can say for those who abuse grace is that even though they are saved, there will be grave consequences.
    I am not sure what the consequences are, but they are not being cast in the Lake of fire.
    But I sure do not want to know what these consequences are. To turn from the Lord after what he did for us is very distasteful, and whatever consequences they are, I trust they are well deserved.
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    15 May '16 17:15
    This is the section of scripture I am referring to...

    1 Thess 4:3-8

    3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
    NKJV
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    16 May '16 01:154 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    The word is "gennaō anothen" and unfortunately it was translated born again.
    It is used 5 times in John ( (John 3:3, 7, 31; John 19:11, 23).
    In the Epistles a different word is used which does mean "born again".

    “Born from above” is talking about the resurrection from the dead that will occur when God above puts His spirit in dead people who are then “born” from the grave.
    Saying, “born from the grave” is biblically accurate, because Isaiah 26:19 says that “the earth will give birth to her dead,” as if the earth is a big womb that gives birth to people at the resurrection (the KJV, which says the earth will “cast out” the dead, is not as clear as versions such as the ESV, NIV, or NASB, which have “give birth to.”


    The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus indicates that Nicodemus understood Jesus to mean BORN AGAIN.

    "Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (v.3)

    Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old ? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he ? " (v.4)


    BORN a second time is what is under discussion.
    BORN anew or again is what is being taught.
    That is why Nicodemus asks HOW can an old man like himself be re-born.

    The Lord Jesus then uses another phrase which is absolutely meant to be interchangeable with "born anew" . And that is "born of the Spirit" (v.8)

    He does not limit that to meaning physical resurrection.

    The disciples were born of the Spirit on the day of Christ's resurrection when He imparted into them the Holy Spirit.

    " Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.

    And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit," (John 20:21,22)
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    16 May '16 01:22
    John 20 records the day Jesus caused the disciples to be born of the Spirit when He told them to "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22)

    This was not on the day of their being physically resurrected.
    This was prior also to their physical death.

    This was the day that they received the Holy Spirit and were " born of the Spirit."

    I would also point out that Jesus said unless one is born anew he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. He cannot understand God's kingdom. He cannot comprehend God's kingdom.

    Of course verse 5 says a man cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God unless he is born of water "and of the Spirit". But the "seeing" of the kingdom of God in verse 3, I think relates to more than entering. It relates to comprehending, understanding, perceiving the need to have God's very life in order to participate in God's kingdom.

    Ephesians 4:18 says that fallen man is not only not in the kingdom of God, he is " ... estranged [or alienated] from the LIFE of God."

    " Being darkened in their UNDERSTANDING, ALIENATED from the life of God ... " (Eph. 4:18a)


    Being born of God is the beginning of that termination of this alienation of human beings from "the life of God". God imparts His very life into those born again. And this does not WAIT until the day of physical resurrection.
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    16 May '16 01:361 edit
    It is true that verse 3 of John 3 can read born from above.

    But it is not true that this new birth is relegated only to the day of physical resurrection.

    The audience of the Apostle Peter were regenerated by the living and abiding word of God on THIS SIDE of their being resurrected from tombs and graves.

    First Peter 1:23 - Their Having BEEN [past tense] ... regenerated

    " Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth unto unfeigned brotherly love ... Having BEEN regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God."



    The saints had BEEN reborn and born from above by believing the word of God. And that word brought the living Person from above into their beings - regenerating them, causing them to have a SECOND birth. And that before physical resurrection.
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    16 May '16 01:513 edits
    I think Checkbaiter is trying to put out a teaching that only on the day of resurrection a man is born anew or born from above.

    However, James tells the believers that prior to their physical death, God their Father has already brought them forth.

    " He [the Father of lights (v.17)] brought us forth by the word of truth, purposing that we might be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." (James 1:18)


    The Divine Father has already begotten these children, causing them to have a new spiritual birth quite prior to their victorious bodily resurrection.
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