Checkbaiter and the New Dispensation

Originally posted by sonship
I think Checkbaiter is trying to put out a teaching that only on the day of resurrection a man is born anew or born from above.

However, [b]James tells the believers that prior to their physical death, God their Father has already brought them forth.

[quote] " He [the Father of lights (v.17)] brought us forth by the word of ...[text shortened]... causing them to have a new spiritual birth quite prior to their victorious bodily resurrection.

Actually you are incorrect. It does mean born from above,
If you look up the words, born from above and born again are two completely different words in the Greek. If you wish, I will show you.
And no, I said nothing about the resurrection. People could not get "born again" or be "permanently filled with holy spirit" or, to use different language, "baptized in holy spirit"
until the day of Pentecost.
Jesus instructed his disciples to wait in Jerusalem....
Luke 24:49
Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."
NKJV

This is when the new birth first happened to the disciples first, then every one they witnessed to.

Originally posted by Rajk999
No, what Checkabiter is saying that the teachings and commandments of Jesus are not longer applicable because we are not under the dispensation of Jesus, We are in another dispensation called the dispensation of grace. Those who follow Christ are going to be in some kind of difficulty according to Checkbaiter .. do you agree with him?

I don't agree with checkbaiter in a sense.... I do believe in grace however and well who gives us grace? None other than Jesus himself. I believe if we love Jesus we will obey him that's faith in action doing what Jesus said and commanded us to do.

Manny

What I mean by cheap grace is that many think I can say the magical sinners prayer then go about living the same as before but be saved... It's like the term rice Christians one's who come for the food but do not nessesarliy believe the message of the gospel

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
What I mean by cheap grace is that many think I can say the magical sinners prayer then go about living the same as before but be saved... It's like the term rice Christians one's who come for the food but do not nessesarliy believe the message of the gospel

Manny

Those, usually are not born again. Believing is from the heart and connotes action.
A real Christian has a new nature and lives differently from his old self.
It is true that we recognize Christians by their fruit.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Jesus comes in at #4.
Here is the problem people will encounter who believe we are under Jesus commandments.
They are part of the old Testament. Jesus was living in the OT.
The day of Pentecost ushered in the New Covenant. People in the time of Jesus could not yet get born again.
I know exactly what you will come back with. Nicodemus.
But is that wh ...[text shortened]... om God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
NKJV
[/quote]

I have just one focus on this thread so I will ignore the rest of your post and concentrate on these points:

1. You have kicked Jesus Christ out of the current dispensation #5 and have placed him in the Old Testament along with Law of Moses
2. You have removed his influence on your personal life by saying that his laws and commandments do not apply.

I have to shake my head in disbelief that this is the kind of nonsense that passes for Christianity these days.

So #1 means that the teachings of Christ expired and came to an end at the day of Pentecost... a mere 12 to 15 years after he started his ministry .. surely you cannot possibly believe that? This doctrine has no support in the Bible at all. Christ said:
- His words will not pass away
- Follow Him and you will get eternal life
- His teachings is what gives life

You claim that Christ did not know everything before his death and resurrection. Again there is no support in the Bible for that. Even if you are correct AFTER JESUS WAS RESURRECTED ... AFTER, HE SAID THIS:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)

Christ's instruction was to teach ALL NATIONS ... ALL MEANS JEWS, GENTILES & EVERYBODY to OBSERVE HIS COMMANDMENTS. This instruction was given to the Apostles and disciples before he left

Next, A proper understanding of the Testaments and Covenants is given in Hebrews 7, 8 and 9 .. Please read it. Jesus Christ is the New Testament and He is the New Covenant, His blood is shed for remission of sins in the New Covenant. There is no other covenant under heaven under which man can get eternal life. To place Christ along with the Law of Moses in the previous dispensation is the most dishonest excuse I have come across for not following Christ commandments.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7 KJV)

Did you get that? The first covenant [law of Moses] was replaced by the second [Jesus Christ]. Lumping them together is dishonest. JESUS CHRIST USHERED IN THE NEW COVENANT. NOT THE DAY OF PENTECOST

As for your #2, the entire Bible is against you. I have nothing to say about that, except what I already said in other threads. Your choice. If you believe that you accept Christ and you get eternal life and that cannot be taken away by God from you then thats your delusion that you have to live with.

But I will say this. The only Christians that will gravitate to such a sick and depraved doctrine are those Christians who want to live fleshly worldly lives and not follow anything Jesus Christ commanded. So any doctrine that supports their cause would be acceptable even thoough that doctrine is totally contrary to the Bible.

Christ said IF ! Here it is:

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Anyone with a reasonable grasp of the english language can see that Jesus is saying that:

IF someone follows his commandments :
- THEN that person is a disciple
- THEN that person is never sees death
- THEN that person will abide in Christ's love
- THEN the Comforter is sent to that person for ever
- THEN that person is a friend of Christ
- THEN that person will enter into life
- THEN that person will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Actually you are incorrect. It does mean born from above,
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I did not say it didn't mean born from above. I looked in the margin of my Recovery Version (an excellent NT Translation which even world renown NT Greek scholar F.F. Bruce recommended). And the footnote for John 3:3 did say -

"Or; born from above. So in v.7. To be born anew is to be born from above, from heaven, that is, to be born from God, who is in heaven."

If you look up the words, born from above and born again are two completely different words in the Greek. If you wish, I will show you.
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You can show me what you wish about this.

What you are missing is that the two phrases are interchangeable. That is they are two expressions for the same experience. Do you disagree ?

Born from above = born anew.

I would not believe something you showed me to attempt to teach that these two phrases mean completely different. I took note of your Old Testament passage.
And you have some ground to think of resurrection as a birth according to First Corinthians15.

However, stretching that to the point that you confuse John 3's teaching on the new birth, is wrong. That is going too far.


And no, I said nothing about the resurrection. People could not get "born again" or be "permanently filled with holy spirit" or, to use different language, "baptized in holy spirit"
until the day of Pentecost.
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This is what you wrote:

“Born from above” is talking about the resurrection from the dead that will occur when God above puts His spirit in dead people who are then “born” from the grave.

Do you want to revise that sentence now?

Jesus instructed his disciples to wait in Jerusalem....
Luke 24:49
Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have introduced a couple of new concepts - filled with the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and endued with power from on high.

Born of the Spirit (born from above) is the beginning of any other further blessing of the Spirit mentioned in Acts. This should be logical. In the natural realm one is first born. Latter that one is enabled with additional empowerings and abilities out from that initial life they have received in birth.

We should trust the Apostle John's Gospel when he deliberately records Jesus imparting the Holy Spirit into the disciples on the evening of the day He rose from the dead. They must have entered into the "born anew" - "born from above" experience at that moment.

Latter on the day of Pentecost they were empowered and endued from that same Holy Spirit. They first spent ten days in prayer waiting.

And I believe that during those ten days I bet they first did a lot of confessing and consecrating themselves to God. Praying ten days would have required them to have the Holy Spirit. I think they forgave one another various offenses and confessed their sins to God and maybe to one another.

We're not told explicitly what they prayed about though.

After they witnessed Jesus ascending to Heaven it says -

" Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount of Olives, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

And when they entered, they went up to the upper room where they were residing, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the brother of James.

These all continued steadfastly with one accord in prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers." (Acts 1:12-14)

I don't think it was possible for them to stay in one accord together in prayer unless they were already born again. Though they were already born from above they were obeying the Lord's command to wait for the empowering of the Holy Spirit.

"But He said to them ... But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth. " (Acts 1:7a,8)

They had already been born again and therefore had already received the Holy Spirit in His function to impart that new seed of divine life into them (John 20:21,22).

Luke 24:49
Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."
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That is correct. But that is the promise of the Father. And though it is the same Holy Spirit, this is a distinct aspect of His work besides that promise of Jesus in john 14 - 16 of the Holy Spirit coming as "another Comforter" and "the Spirit of reality [truth]" which John explicitly records was fulfilled on the evening of His resurrection.


This is when the new birth first happened to the disciples first, then every one they witnessed to.
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I use to believe that Pentecost was when they were born again. But that required me to nullify John's Gospel as either incorrect or too symbolic to be meaningful. Neither of these assumptions I any longer hold.

You may regard John's testimony are wrong if you wish. I see no reason to make John and Luke / Acts argue with each other. The Holy Spirit came first to cause the twelve to be born again on the evening of Christ's resurrection.

They were to wait until they were baptized into the Holy Spirit and clothed with power to preach. That occurred to those already born again in the upper room days latter, on Pentecost.

Because many Bible readers emphasize DOING and WORKING over NEW LIFE from BIRTH they gravitate towards Acts as being the start of the disciples receiving the Holy Spirit.

John corrected this tendency and emphasized that the disciples received that BIRTH from the Holy Spirit before Pentecost.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have just one focus on this thread so I will ignore the rest of your post and concentrate on these points:

[b]1. You have kicked Jesus Christ out of the current dispensation #5 and have placed him in the Old Testament along with Law of Moses
2. You have removed his influence on your personal life by saying that his laws and commandments do not apply. ...[text shortened]... that person will enter into life
- THEN that person will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.[/i][/b]

1. You have kicked Jesus Christ out of the current dispensation #5 and have placed him in the Old Testament along with Law of Moses

You have such a way with words. Jesus wasn't "kicked out" of anything. His time while he walked the earth, was in that era of the Law, like it or not.

2. You have removed his influence on your personal life by saying that his laws and commandments do not apply.

Removed his influence? Wow! You are a very sarcastic dude. I said no such thing.
His influence is in every Christian life. He is the Head of this Administration!
You seem very confused, and angry.
I took a chance trying to respond to you, but clearly you are not ready.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Actually you are incorrect. It does mean born from above,
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I did not say it didn't mean born from above. I looked in the margin of my Recovery Version (an excellent NT Translation which even world renown NT Greek scholar F.F. Bruce recommended). And the footno ...[text shortened]... people who are then “born” from the grave. [/quote]

Do you want to revise that sentence now?[/b]

“Born from above” is talking about the resurrection from the dead that will occur when God above puts His spirit in dead people who are then “born” from the grave.



Do you want to revise that sentence now?

No. The Greek text reads gennaō anothen.
This same truth about the dead coming up out of the ground is found in Ezekiel 37:12-14 and Daniel 12:2. The imagery of resurrection as “birth” is in the Old and New Testament. Besides here in John 3, Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead,” referring to the fact that he was the very first one to be raised from the dead (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5. Cp. Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15).

The Jews had no knowledge of what the New Testament calls the “New Birth” (1 Pet. 1:3) or being “born again” (1 Peter 1:23). There was no “New Birth” mentioned in the Old Test., or the Gospels. From Genesis until the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), God gave His "gift" of holy spirit only on a relatively few people, and when He did give it, He gave it conditionally, meaning that He could take it away. For example, God took His spirit from King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14), and after David sinned with Uriah and Bathsheba, David prayed God would not take it from him (Ps. 51:11).
The new birth is part of the Administration of Grace.
John 3: 1-12 is not referring to the new birth that Christians have today.

Jesus spoke to them about a “birth from above” that the Jews were supposed to know about and understand. That is why Jesus chided Nicodemus, saying, “Are you the well-known teacher of Israel, and yet do not know these things?” (John 3:10). So we have to look in the Old Testament for the kind of birth Jesus spoke of, which is the birth of the body from the ground, which will happen at the resurrection (Isa. 26:19 (NIV); Ezek. 37:12-14; Dan. 12:2). Unfortunately, at the time of Christ, most Jews were ignorant about the resurrection from the dead and entrance into the Messianic Kingdom. The Sadducees did not even believe in a resurrection (Matt. 22:23). The Pharisees, on the other hand, of which Nicodemus was one, generally believed in immediate life after death. This primarily was due to Greek Mythology.

So we see the way God gave the gift of holy spirit during the OT and Gospel period. After the Day of Pentecost when the Christian Church started (Acts 2), God gave holy spirit in birth, and so the Epistles refer to this as the “New Birth.” Today, Christians get “born again” when they believe. However, the New Birth was never mentioned in the Old Testament and therefore the Jews knew nothing of it.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]1. You have kicked Jesus Christ out of the current dispensation #5 and have placed him in the Old Testament along with Law of Moses

You have such a way with words. Jesus wasn't "kicked out" of anything. His time while he walked the earth, was in that era of the Law, like it or not.

2. You have removed his influence on your personal life b ...[text shortened]... y confused, and angry.
I took a chance trying to respond to you, but clearly you are not ready.

Worry about yourself. You are committing a grave sin to preach the doctrine you do and to claim that Jesus and His commandments are not important. Being sarcistic is not a sin.

Consider this passage from The New Dispensation of Grace, after Jesus left, and after the Day of Pentecost from Peter who has the HOLY SPIRIT .. maybe you will listen to Peter:

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)

Did you get that? No? Let me simplify:

Listen to Jesus Christ, listen to everything Jesus says. If you do not, then you will be destroyed

Originally posted by checkbaiter

“Born from above” is talking about the resurrection from the dead that will occur when God above puts His spirit in dead people who are then “born” from the grave.
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Where ever and whenever a man or woman is born anew he or she is ALSO born from above. I already proved that. The living saints not yet expired were BORN not of corruptible seed but of the incorruptible living word of God.

If you don't know what I or Peter are talking about it may be because you have no experience of being born anew. Or some bad teaching has turned things around so badly that you are waiting for the day of resurrection to be "born anew" and "born from above".

Do you count everyone raised from the dead as being born from above?
That makes no sense. Unbelievers will be raised from the dead.
Do you count them as being born from above ??

" Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:29)

Do you regard all of both categories of resurrected people to be "born from above" ?

Do you count those raised to appear before great white throne to be condemned to be "born from above" ?

" And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works."

Do you count those who are judged and condemned to be "born from above" ?

Me:
Do you want to revise that sentence now?

No. The Greek text reads gennaō anothen.
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Why did Jesus simply answer Nicodemus that to be born from above was for him to be resurrected ? When Nicodemus asked him how he, and old man, could be reborn as Jesus was speaking, why didn't Jesus simply say "resurrection" following physical death?

Your concept is too Old Testament, too devoid of New Testament economy, and too caught up with the physical realm to the detriment of man's spiritual component.

This is trying to pour new wine into old wine skins. You are trying to make the born anew mean only something physical. To the natural mind this is easy to understand. But it is shallow. It is superficial at best.

This is dumbing down the New Testament to what the natural mind can comprehend - a physical resurrection and that is all.

The same Gospel tells that as many as received Jesus are BORN of God.
They are not WAITING to be born on the day God raised them from the grave.
They are BORN of God on the day they receive the Lord Jesus.

" But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE INTO HIS NAME

Who were BEGOTTEN not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God. " (John 1:12,13) (excuse the shouting).

They received Jesus believing into Him and are BORN [BEGOTTEN] of God.
It is wrong to teach that only on the day of physical resurrection people are born of God.

They are born of God on any day before physical death that they RECEIVE the Lord Jesus. And on that day they are given authority to be "organically" a part of God's family.

Your Old Testament verses from Ezekiel and Daniel I will probably speak to in another post.

Originally posted by checkbaiter




Do you want to revise that sentence now?

No. The Greek text reads gennaō anothen.
This same truth about the dead coming up out of the ground is found in Ezekiel 37:12-14 and Daniel 12:2. The imagery of resurrection as “birth” is in the Old and New Testament. Besides here in John 3, Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead,” referring ...[text shortened]... he New Birth was never mentioned in the Old Testament and therefore the Jews knew nothing of it.[/b]

This same truth about the dead coming up out of the ground is found in Ezekiel 37:12-14 and Daniel 12:2.

The imagery of resurrection as “birth” is in the Old and New Testament. Besides here in John 3, Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead,” referring to the fact that he was the very first one to be raised from the dead (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5. Cp. Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15).
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Jesus is indeed called the Firstborn from the dead.

But the New Testament speaks of the Christians being begotten of God as a PAST event prior to them expiring. It is because of His resurrection they HAVE BEEN regenerated unto the living hope which they possess on THIS SIDE of expiring and physical resurrection.

There is no argument against it.

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has REGENERATED US [past tense] unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

You want to change that in - they're going to be regenerated in the future.
The Apostle Peter says God HAS REGENERATED them.

You want to relegate this being born to their future.
While I can see some of your logic is based on some things the NT says, I see also its errors.

There is no way around the fact that Peter refers to the PAST TENSE of these Christians as to how God has regenerated them through the resurrected Jesus.

" .. according to His great mercy HAS [past tense] REGENERATED US ..."

It is NOT according to His great mercy He is GOING TO regenerate us when He resurrects our bodies. Now resurrection is also His great mercy, no doubt. And we can talk about rapture, transfiguration and resurrection as a kind of birth. I see where you are coming from.

However, as to the Christians PAST - they have already been born of God, born from above, and regenerated through the resurrected Jesus Christ.

Do you think you are doing Christ some service by contradicting His apostles ? Peter says the have been regenerated. You argue that they have not YET been regenerated.

The becoming children of God through being begotten of God, the Apostle John says the believers have NOW and not only when resurrected.

"Beloved, NOW are we the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. " (1 John 3:2a)

Your argument seems to be that only at physical resurrection can the believers say they are born from above, from God. John says we may say we are children of God NOW on this side of the second coming and resurrection.

.How did they and we who are Christians become children of God now? Of course by receiving Him He gave us that authority (John 1:12) by believing into His name.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] This same truth about the dead coming up out of the ground is found in Ezekiel 37:12-14 and Daniel 12:2.

The imagery of resurrection as “birth” is in the Old and New Testament. Besides here in John 3, Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead,” referring to the fact that he was the very first one to be raised from the dead (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5. Cp ...[text shortened]... course by receiving Him He gave us that authority [b](John 1:12) by believing into His name.[/b]

Where are you getting this from? Certainly not from what I wrote.
The Apostles got born again on the day of Pentecost. EVERYONE who receives Jesus according to Romans 10:9 is born again.
But before the day of Pentecost to be born again was not yet available.
I sense you are not reading the commentary I posted or you must be speed reading through it.
I don't want to continue this any longer if your understanding of my post is not there.
It's just a waste of my time.. same goes for Rajk...