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" And Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn." [b](Gen. 32:22)
Who wrestled all night with Jacob? "[A] man wrestled with him." .
You should read the whole account in Genesis 32:22-32
Eventually Jacob could not be defeated in this wrestling match by this mysterious man. And before Jacob would let him go he asked his name.
"And Jacob asked Him and said, Please tell me Your name. But He said, Why us it that you ask My name? And He blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, for he said, I have seen God face to face, and yet myu life has been preserved." (vs.29,30)
Peniel means "the face of God".
The incredibly strong in himself Jacob wrestled with a MAN. And the man changed Jacob's name from that to Israel. Yet he also touched his strongest part, his thigh, and Israel (Jacob) afterwards walked with a limp.
Jacob realized that this supernatural man that he wrestled was God.
"I have seen God face to face . . . "
This is a window, one of many, giving us a short glimpse even in the Old Testament of the three-oneness of God. There is more to come.
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A red thumb down is a feeble rebuttal.
Jacob wrestled with a man and said he saw God face to face. He called the place where he wrestled this mysterious man Peniel meaning "the face of God".
According to Hosea 12:4 this mysterious wrestling man was the Angel of Jehovah.
"In the womb he [Jacob] grasped his brother by the heel, And in his full strength he contended with God. (v.3)
Indeed he contended with the Angel and prevailed;"(v.4)
This man was God before the birth of Jesus appearing mysteriously as a man - the Angel of Jehovah. In his whole life Jacob the clever competitor and heel holding cheater of men was wrestling with the circumstances God had sovereignly arranged for him in order to transform him.
Eventually, the point was made by God coming to PHYSICALLY wrestled with Jacob as a man at Peniel.
This was the Angel of Jehovah. And Hosea goes on to say this was God Himself who spoke to Israel.
"Indeed he contended with the Angel and prevailed; He wept and made supplication to Him. At Bethel he found Him; and there He spoke to us, Even Jehovah the God of hosts; Jehovah is His memorial." (vs.4,5)
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Could the critic hiding behind the little red thumbs down come out and refute what I have written so far ?
Jacob wrestled with the Angel of Jehovah who is identified as Jehovah.
This Messenger is before the birth of Jesus from Mary in the NT.
How could Jacob wrestle with "a man" whose identity is interchangeable with Jehovah God? I don't know. But that is what it says.
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The footnote of the Recovery Version for Genesis 32:24 includes these words written by Witness Lee copied here by hand.
"The Lord as a man wrestled with Jacob so that He might touch Jacob's natural strength, signified by the socket of Jacob's hip at the thigh muscle (vv. 25,32). The Lord wrestling with Jacob lasted a considerable time, fully exposing how natural Jacob was."
@sonship saidReally? You"ll try anything...... OK here ya go.
" And Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn." [b](Gen. 32:22)
Who wrestled all night with Jacob? "[A] man wrestled with him." .
You should read the whole account in Genesis 32:22-32
Eventually Jacob could not be defeated in this wrestling match by this mysterious man. And before Jacob would let him ...[text shortened]... ng us a short glimpse even in the Old Testament of the three-oneness of God. There is more to come.
John 1:18. 18 "No man has seen God at (((((( any time ))))); the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
So. The wrong understanding you have is exposed again. This was an angel who represented Jehovah. Jacob could sense this was an angel and knew it was from God which of course was very impressive. Jacob knew this was not a human.
And do you really think a mere human could actually wrestle with God Almighty?????? Lol.
Also in that scripture did you catch that Jesus very clearly is called a GOD but he is not called the Almighty God here and in fact as other scriptures clearly show he sits at the right hand or a subordinate position to his Father Jehovah.
You really should do a little more research and do some prayer in trying to get your beliefs straightened out.
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Continuing the RcV footnote on Jacob's wrestling with a man - Jehovah as the Angel of Jehovah. [Copied by hand, my bolding]
"The touching of the socket of Jacob's hip at the thigh muscle (v.32), the strongest muscle in the body, signifies the touching of Jacob's natural strength. This was the beginning of Jacob's transformation. As ch. 33 shows (See Jacob's transformation notes 4(1) and 17(1) there) after this experience Jacob was still natural. Nevertheless, although there was no change in Jacob's outward living, his natural life, his inward natural strength, had been dealt with by the Lord. This is signified by the fact that Jacob walked with a limp (v.31). The way of religion is to change man's outward behavior; the way of God in His economy is to touch man's inward life in order to change his inward being."
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John 1:18. 18 "No man has seen God at (((((( any time ))))); the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
This is true too. The Apostle John is bold to say ALL of the appearances of God to man in the Hebrew Bible do no longer count as seeing of God. For John to write this was very bold because the OT tells us a number of times that certain men saw God.
In Exodus it says Moses and the seventy elders SAW Jehovah the God of Israel.
"Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. And they saw the God of Israel, and under His feet there was something like a paved work of saphire, even like heaven itself for clearness.
And He did not stretch out His hand upon the nobles of the children of Israel. And they beheld God and ate and drank." (Exodus 24:9-11)
They SAW the God of Israel. God did not strike them dead. John in the New Testaments declares that the incarnation of Jesus supersedes all the appearances of God in the Old Testament. The manifestation of God in the incarnation now counts as the truer SEEING of God. It transcends the experiences of the patriarchs to whom God appeared, including Moses and the men with him who "saw the God of Israel".
So. The wrong understanding you have is exposed again. This was an angel who represented Jehovah.
You may say the Angel represented Jehovah. But the Bible also says it was God. You wish to change the Bible to say it was NOT God. But that is your preference to have the Bible agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses' denial of the Scriptures by using only the parts to quote that they want to.
The Angel of Jehovah was called God and Jehovah in a few places in the Hebrew Bible.
Ie. Moses hid his face from God who spoke to him out of the burning bush.
"And when Jehovah saw that he had returned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am. And He said, Do not come near here. Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.
And HE said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
AND JEHOVAH SAID, I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt . . . etc. etc. " (Exodus 3:4 - 7)
It was the voice of God. It was Jehovah speaking to Moses.
But verse 2 says the Angel of Jehovah appeared to Moses.
"And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. And when he looked, there was the thornbush, burning with fire; but the thornbush was not consumed." (Exo. 3:2)
A hint of the triune God is seen here as well. The Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah. The Word was with God and the Word was God.
@sonship saidJohn 1:18. 18 "No man has seen God at (((((( any time ))))); the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
@galveston75
John 1:18. 18 "No man has seen God at (((((( any time ))))); the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
This is true too. The Apostle John is bold to say ALL of the appearances of God to man in the Hebrew Bible do no longer count as seeing of God. For John to write this was very bold because ...[text shortened]... d is seen here as well. The Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah. The Word was with God and the Word was God.
So. You just don't get it do you. You cannot pick and choose what scriptures you approve of. Wow!!!!
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Jacob knew this was not a human.
And do you really think a mere human could actually wrestle with God Almighty?????? Lol.
Also in that scripture did you catch that Jesus very clearly is called a GOD but he is not called the Almighty God here and in fact as other scriptures clearly show he sits at the right hand or a subordinate position to his Father Jehovah.
You really should do a little more research and do some prayer in trying to get your beliefs straightened out.
Moses writing Genesis was clear. He needed not to come to the kingdom hall of the Watchtower students to get advice. And writing the word of God he says that a man wrestled with Jacob.
That means that a man wrestled with Jacob.
And the rest of the account means that the man was God.
Eventually the Word who was with God and was God became flesh and tabernacled among us.
The burning bush probably signifies that God would incarnate in a man, man in the appearance of fallen sons of Adam. He came in the likeness of the flesh of sin. Yet Jesus had no sin. He came in the fashion of a man, a descendent of fallen Adam.
The holy God is the consuming fire of perfection. He came to speak to Moses in a thorny bush. This thornbush may represent the fallen human being.
God being one with man (the thornbush) did not obliterate it with His holiness.
Jesus was is the mingling of God and man.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThis is what he does all the time. He is using the forum as his personal blog and doing a bunch of copying and pasting, clearly an abuse of the Spiritual Forum. I really dont know why they tolerate him.
@sonship
I was expecting you to create such a spam thread on the back of your abysmal showing this evening in other threads. 5 posts in a row and counting.
That isn't how threads work. - Make your OP. Wait for others to reply.
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John 1:18. 18 "No man has seen God at (((((( any time ))))); the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
The same writer John explains in chapter 12:41 that the prophet Isaiah saw God's glory. And this was Isaiah's seeing of Christ before His incarnation.
" He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, that they might not see with their eyes and understand with their heart and turn, and I will heal them."
These things said Isaiah because he saw His [Christ's] glory and spoke concerning Him."
When did Isaiah Christ's glory and speak of Him?
Isaiah 6:1-5
"In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on high a and lofty throne, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Seraphim hovered over Him, . . . And one called to the other, saying Holy, holy, holy, Jehovah of hosts;
The whole earth is filled with His glory.
And the foundations of the threshold shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke . . . Then I said, Woe is me, for I am finished! For I am a person of unclean lips, and in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell;
Yet my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts." (see vs 1- 5)
The same writer John who said no one has even seen God and that the only begotten Son has manifested Him also says Isaiah saw the glory of Jehovah the King in his Gospel speaking of the people not recognizing Jesus the Son of God.
So we do not pick and choose Galveston. We take in everything that is written all together.
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How many thumbs down will it take to change John 12:41 and Isaiah 6:1-5?
The Apostle John who said "No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him"(John 1:18) also wrote in the same book -
These things said Isaiah because he saw His glory and spoke concerning Him." (12:41). Isaiah, John says, SAW Christ's glory. When we check what John is referring to, he saw Jehovah God in Isaiah 6.
Taken together is must mean that along with other visions of God in the Old Testament the declaring of the Father from the living of the Son of God transcends all those epiphanies.
This is how God wishes to be seen - as the man Jesus life, death, and resurrection.
The Son has declared God. And Paul spoke of "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 4:6)