1. Joined
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    16 Feb '07 00:46
    Christianity does not believe in predestination. But God knows all of our actions before we do them. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and said this at the Last Super I believe (or inferred that he would). So how did Judas have free will in this situation? Was he predestined to betray Jesus? Could Judas have chose to not betray Jesus?

    This is not a question about Judas, but more a question about what seems to me to be predestination.
  2. Standard memberRBHILL
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    16 Feb '07 01:14
    Originally posted by zambony
    Christianity does not believe in predestination. But God knows all of our actions before we do them. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and said this at the Last Super I believe (or inferred that he would). So how did Judas have free will in this situation? Was he predestined to betray Jesus? Could Judas have chose to not betray Jesus?

    This is not a question about Judas, but more a question about what seems to me to be predestination.
    We don't?
    Then what is the Book of Revelation for.

    Romans 8:29
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

    Romans 8:30
    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:5
    he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

    Ephesians 1:11
    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
  3. Joined
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    16 Feb '07 01:20
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    We don't?
    Then what is the Book of Revelation for.

    Romans 8:29
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

    Romans 8:30
    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:5
    he ...[text shortened]... cording to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
    So what does that mean; do we or do we not have free will? If we are destined to go to hell, there is nothing we can do about it?
  4. Joined
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    16 Feb '07 01:25
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    We don't?
    Then what is the Book of Revelation for.

    Romans 8:29
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

    Romans 8:30
    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:5
    he ...[text shortened]... cording to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
    I am a Christian, I just find this troubling to me. Could Judas have not have betrayed Jesus after Jesus said that one of you wil betray me?
  5. Joined
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    16 Feb '07 03:38
    Originally posted by zambony
    I am a Christian, I just find this troubling to me. Could Judas have not have betrayed Jesus after Jesus said that one of you wil betray me?
    Calvinism. I've been in a huge debate with a christian friend for 4 years about predestination. He believes that God chose those who would be damned or saved before creation. That is wrong.

    God knew who would believe and PREdestinated them to be conformed to the image of his son.
  6. Joined
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    16 Feb '07 03:40
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    So what does that mean; do we or do we not have free will? If we are destined to go to hell, there is nothing we can do about it?
    Does it feel like a paradox?
  7. Joined
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    18 Feb '07 01:09
    To clarify a couple points:
    Calvinism teaches, with regard to predestination, God's election (predestination) of some people to saved and some to be lost.

    On the other side is Arminianism which teaches God does not arbitrarily assign some people to be lost and some to be saved; it’s based on their personal choice. One is predestined to eternal life if they accept God’s provision for their salvation.

    God knows who will and will not follow Him in advance so in that sense we are predestined but the choice is still ours to freely make. So God has foreordained from the beginning what will happen to those who have followed Him and to those who chose not to.

    In Deuteronomy, God told the people to choose to follow Him to receive blessings. In Joshua the people were told to choose to serve God or the idols of their neighbors. There are hundreds of verses that tell us how we are to live so clearly in order to follow this advice requires free will and the ability to choose. If everything is predestined, then choice is not possible.

    But there is a conundrum here. How can a sinful man choose God? If you read John 6:44 Jesus said no man can come to him unless God draws him. They are not choosing on their own, but God Himself is drawing them. I think this is where the argument comes in. I believe the answer is found in Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made… so that they are without excuse.” God has put in man something that only God Himself can satisfy, but man has chosen not to believe. But “when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened …who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.” (Those verses are talking about homosexuality, but it illustrates a principle.)

    The question of why God would allow people He knows are going to be lost to be born is another issue.
  8. Joined
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    18 Feb '07 06:261 edit
    Originally posted by masscat
    To clarify a couple points:
    Calvinism teaches, with regard to predestination, God's election (predestination) of some people to saved and some to be lost.

    On the other side is Arminianism which teaches God does not arbitrarily assign some people to be lost and some to be saved; it’s based on their personal choice. One is predestined to eternal life if t ...[text shortened]... estion of why God would allow people He knows are going to be lost to be born is another issue.
    Nice post. I think the whole disconnect is how one could create something with free will yet know what their choice will be despite this fact. This is because we do not have the capacity to understand how one could create something with free will, let alone turning around and then forseeing what their choices would be despite them having free will with which to make their decisions.
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    18 Feb '07 07:54
    Originally posted by whodey
    Nice post. I think the whole disconnect is how one could create something with free will yet know what their choice will be despite this fact. This is because we do not have the capacity to understand how one could create something with free will, let alone turning around and then forseeing what their choices would be despite them having free will with which to make their decisions.
    No, it's because its a logical absurdity. The fact that you have chosen to abort your brain in favour of this rubbish does nothing to lend it any credibility.
  10. Shetland Primary
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    18 Feb '07 12:48
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    So what does that mean; do we or do we not have free will? If we are destined to go to hell, there is nothing we can do about it?
    You are destined to go to hell if you reject the grace that is offered you.
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    18 Feb '07 14:24
    It's a puzzler alright. Could be God was lonely and wanted someone to share with. Free will sort of makes us "mini gods" while we're here on Earth. We can indulge our egos or choose to serve others .. and will no doubt, do both at different points in our lives.
    The free will thing goes both ways though. Responsibilty for ones actions can be overlooked when one is "god" .. it's a choice.

    My free will often comes down to a fight between my conscience (reason) and my ego (desire)
    Desire wins less of those battles as I age.
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    18 Feb '07 22:27
    Originally posted by jammer
    It's a puzzler alright. Could be God was lonely and wanted someone to share with. Free will sort of makes us "mini gods" while we're here on Earth. We can indulge our egos or choose to serve others .. and will no doubt, do both at different points in our lives.
    The free will thing goes both ways though. Responsibilty for ones actions can be overlooked when o ...[text shortened]... n my conscience (reason) and my ego (desire)
    Desire wins less of those battles as I age.
    I think free will is the only aspect to creation that God is half interested in. Think about it. If you were God and knew what was going to happen before it happened how would you spice things up a bit? The answer is to provide your creation with free will to defy you if they so desired. Granted, you still know what the outcome will be, however, it at least makes it a bit more interesting.
  13. Joined
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    19 Feb '07 14:36
    Originally posted by whodey
    I think free will is the only aspect to creation that God is half interested in. Think about it. If you were God and knew what was going to happen before it happened how would you spice things up a bit? The answer is to provide your creation with free will to defy you if they so desired. Granted, you still know what the outcome will be, however, it at least makes it a bit more interesting.
    Why? Are we subjects of amusement?
  14. Joined
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    20 Feb '07 05:57
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    Why? Are we subjects of amusement?
    You make it sound so sinister. I would replace the term amusement with pleasure. The Bible says that we were created for our Creators pleasure much in the same way we have children ourselves.
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