Christians, Please Read

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b] Anyone that believes in something which is not proveable is a fool.

Are you saying that a person that believes something like evolution which is not proveable, is a fool?

And are you also saying that anyone who condems a person that does not believe in evolution is the very essense of foolishness? 🙄[/b]

You may note I said 'proveable', not 'proven'. Evolution is proveable, god is not.

Originally posted by Starrman
Anyone that believes in something which is not proveable is a fool.

Do you believe your mother loves you ... and can prove it ?

Originally posted by Starrman
You may note I said 'proveable', not 'proven'. Evolution is proveable, god is not.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Originally posted by pcaspian
Originally posted by Starrman
[b]Anyone that believes in something which is not proveable is a fool.

Do you believe your mother loves you ... and can prove it ?
[/b]

yes and yes

Originally posted by Acts29
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Use your own words, if you cannot I will not converse with you.

Besides, how can 'invisible qualities' be 'clearly seen'? What nonsense.

Originally posted by Starrman
Use your own words, if you cannot I will not converse with you.

Besides, how can 'invisible qualities' be 'clearly seen'? What nonsense.

Hehe, I'll paraphrase if you want.
The reality is that you are quoting something, somehow, your way of thinking has been engrained by your experiences, things around you, discussions, and those all mostly not from your own choice ... I chose, after giving my life to God, to let His Word be that which defines my thinking. Once you meet God these grapplings with ideas to understand our existence with God all seem incredibly sad, almost like not seeing the forest for the trees.

To answer your question:
His qualities are invisible, but the result of those qualities are clearly seen ... therefore His invisible qualities become clearly seen. The Bible has a beautiful way with words. Another way of looking at it is the wind, you can see the effects of the invisible wind, but you can't see the wind. I hope that helps.

Originally posted by Starrman
yes and yes

How would you prove it. What is to say that she is not faining love for you to look like a 'good' mother ? So how would you prove this to a scientific panel ?

Originally posted by Acts29
Hehe, I'll paraphrase if you want.
The reality is that you are quoting something, somehow, your way of thinking has been engrained by your experiences, things around you, discussions, and those all mostly not from your own choice ... I chose, after giving my life to God, to let His Word be that which defines my thinking. Once you meet God these grapplings with ideas to understand our existence with God all seem incredibly sad, almost like not seeing the forest for the trees.

A direct quote is not the same as using your mind to translate your experiences into words, not by any stretch of the imaginaton.

To answer your question:
His qualities are invisible, but the result of those qualities are clearly seen ... therefore His invisible qualities become clearly seen. The Bible has a beautiful way with words. Another way of looking at it is the wind, you can see the effects of the invisible wind, but you can't see the wind. I hope that helps.

But if the qualities are invisible, how can you know that those things you claim to be the results of those invisible qualities, are in fact results of thereof. Could they not also be the result of other visible qualities? The only noteable thing the bible has with words is the awesome ambiguity it creates.

Originally posted by pcaspian
Originally posted by Starrman
[b]yes and yes

How would you prove it. What is to say that she is not faining love for you to look like a 'good' mother ? So how would you prove this to a scientific panel ?[/b]

Oh come on, pcaspian, you really are clutching at straws here. Do you have a point?

Originally posted by Starrman
Originally posted by Acts29
[b]Hehe, I'll paraphrase if you want.
The reality is that you are quoting something, somehow, your way of thinking has been engrained by your experiences, things around you, discussions, and those all mostly not from your own choice ... I chose, after giving my life to God, to let His Word be that which defines my think ...[text shortened]... ualities? The only noteable thing the bible has with words is the awesome ambiguity it creates.

If I have to tell you that only God could create the laws of light, gravity, the idea of matter, the structure of things etc, etc, etc and not some chance explosion (an explosion that brings order, that's absurd) then you have walls around your heart, yes your heart not your mind, which probably aren't going to be taken down in a day with a few discussions.
The Bible doesn't create ambiguity, that's the job of men with walls around their hearts.

Originally posted by Acts29
If I have to tell you that only God could create the laws of light, gravity, the idea of matter, the structure of things etc, etc, etc and not some chance explosion (an explosion that brings order, that's absurd) then you have walls around ...[text shortened]... ambiguity, that's the job of men with walls around their hearts.

Once again we have a flawed argument, driven backwards.

The universe is not perfect, because we are here, rather, we are here because it is perfect - for us. (If you miss the subtle difference, perhaps someone will explain it to you.)

Many, many universes may exist, or have existed in the "past", but this is one in which we can exist.

Also, since the "laws" of a universe are arbitary, there may be a conceivable universe in which (visible) light does not exist, but beings much like ourselves could exist.

Originally posted by Acts29
If I have to tell you that only God could create the laws of light, gravity, the idea of matter, the structure of things etc, etc, etc and not some chance explosion (an explosion that brings order, that's absurd) then you have walls around your heart, yes your heart not your mind, which probably aren't going to be taken down in a day with a few discussions.
The Bible doesn't create ambiguity, that's the job of men with walls around their hearts.

I have not once stated my beliefs on the origins of the universe here, you jump to conclusions. However, whatever beliefs I do have are based around reason, not emotion. My heart is clearly seperated from these debates as it is a pump for sending blood around my body and not much use for thinking with.

The bible is full of ambiguity. If it was not there would be no debate on god, it would be clear and simple to understand and follow. You will probably say that I need some translation ability gifted to me by the holy spirit or something, but this is dependant upon first believing in god and so is of little use to me.

Originally posted by Starrman
I have not once stated my beliefs on the origins of the universe here, you jump to conclusions. However, whatever beliefs I do have are based around reason, not emotion. My heart is clearly seperated from these debates as it is a pump for sending blood around my body and not much use for thinking with.

The bible is full of ambiguity. If it was not the ...[text shortened]... t or something, but this is dependant upon first believing in god and so is of little use to me.

I must admit, I did read the Bible before I met God and it did seem rather lifeless, I suppose you could even say unclear. It did become clear after my salvation, it happened at 20:25, Monday 7th June, 1999 ... not at church but in a friend's house who isn't even a Christian. Yes, the Bible is crystal clear, and yes it is because the Spirit makes it clear, and yes I know how stupid that sounds ... I was also on the other side of the fence at one stage.
What can I say, believe in the silly notion that a caring God became a man and died so that you might have life ... Jesus did rise from the grave, and He is still alive, if He wasn't I wouldn't be wasting my time telling people He is.
Anyways, I'm off home ... till next time 🙂

Originally posted by Alcra
Once again we have a flawed argument, driven backwards.

The universe is not perfect, because we are here, rather, we are here because it is perfect - for us. (If you miss the subtle difference, perhaps someone will explain it to you.)

Many, many universes may exist, or have existed in the "past", but this is one in which we can exist.

Also, since th ...[text shortened]... universe in which (visible) light does not exist, but beings much like ourselves could exist.

Shucks, couldn't resist this one ... Alcra, get a bandage on that thumb!

Originally posted by Acts29
I must admit, I did read the Bible before I met God and it did seem rather lifeless, I suppose you could even say unclear. It did become clear after my salvation, it happened at 20:25, Monday 7th June, 1999 ... not at church but in a friend's house who isn't even a Christian. Yes, the Bible is crystal clear, and yes it is because the Spirit makes it clear ...[text shortened]... wouldn't be wasting my time telling people He is.
Anyways, I'm off home ... till next time 🙂

That is a very honest post.

Joking aside, I would be interested in hearing more of your salvation experience.