1. Joined
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    29 Oct '14 15:19
    I dungeons&dragons type games (fantasy rpgs) you can play an adventurer. you can be a fighter, rogue, wizard (and variations of them)


    You can also play cleric. Functionally, this is practically a wizard. The difference though is how the cleric fuels his spells. They are members of their respective religions, and through faith in their deity, he performs miracles. Healing, divine smiting, even resurrecting the dead.

    This is the subject i want to propose for discussion. Do they really have faith? They KNOW their deity is real, they know that in exchange for swearing allegiance they will be granted immense powers, they know that if they break their deity rules, they will be stripped of it.

    How can faith coexist with knowledge?
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 Oct '14 15:38
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I dungeons&dragons type games (fantasy rpgs) you can play an adventurer. you can be a fighter, rogue, wizard (and variations of them)


    You can also play cleric. Functionally, this is practically a wizard. The difference though is how the cleric fuels his spells. They are members of their respective religions, and through faith in their deity, he perfor ...[text shortened]... break their deity rules, they will be stripped of it.

    How can faith coexist with knowledge?
    Oh, please. I appreciate the new angle on this, but this is still just another argument of the old "where does your faith come from?" discussion. Those of 'enough' faith know. Those of weak faith do not know. Strong faith brings knowledge. Notice I said strong faith. Not the weak faith of the YEC's.

    Why are you crapping on clerics, anyways? They are a standard class in RPGs. The 'original' healing class. Lately, I've seen a huge resurgence of healers playing hybrid classes, such as druids, shamans, etc. Clerics, as a 'pure' healing class, were always head-and-shoulders above the hybrids when healing. But now, in games like WoW, we've seen druid healers and shaman healers easily as good as the best priests (and strangely enough, now in WoW, even monk healers). More moving away from religion and moving towards paganism or elementalism. This all part and parcel of any faith. Those of faith, and only those of faith, know. Those of no faith have no knowledge of it either.
  3. Joined
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    29 Oct '14 15:57
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Oh, please. I appreciate the new angle on this, but this is still just another argument of the old "where does your faith come from?" discussion. Those of 'enough' faith know. Those of weak faith do not know. Strong faith brings knowledge. Notice I said strong faith. Not the weak faith of the YEC's.

    Why are you crapping on clerics, anyways? They a ...[text shortened]... hose of faith, and only those of faith, know. Those of no faith have no knowledge of it either.
    faith is the starting point. once you have proof, it is no longer faith. i do not have faith i have 5 fingers, i know.


    as such, i propose that clerics and paladins in D&D aren't really holy men of their religion, they are in fact spokesmen for their respective deity.

    they are employees of a certain "god" in a given company (NOT religion) and they perform services. sometimes they are a non-profit organization like the red cross, but most times they are a company like any other.
  4. Joined
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    29 Oct '14 15:59
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Oh, please. I appreciate the new angle on this, but this is still just another argument of the old "where does your faith come from?" discussion. Those of 'enough' faith know. Those of weak faith do not know. Strong faith brings knowledge. Notice I said strong faith. Not the weak faith of the YEC's.

    Why are you crapping on clerics, anyways? They a ...[text shortened]... hose of faith, and only those of faith, know. Those of no faith have no knowledge of it either.
    shamans commune with spirits
    druids commune with nature
    mages draw energy from the universe.

    clerics supposedly draw energy from their faith. they are different
  5. Cape Town
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    29 Oct '14 16:03
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    How can faith coexist with knowledge?
    Maybe they have faith in something other than the things they are knowledgeable about. They don't have faith that their gods exists as they clearly know that to be true. But they may have faith that their gods will do certain things when asked.
  6. Joined
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    29 Oct '14 16:322 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Maybe they have faith in something other than the things they are knowledgeable about. They don't have faith that their gods exists as they clearly know that to be true. But they may have faith that their gods will do certain things when asked.
    that doesn't seem like faith capable of fueling miracles. it's more like submitting an office supply request form to your superior in a corporation.

    edit: also the mechanics state that "requests" for miracles always work, so again it is a matter of "knowing" they will be granting instead of having faith
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 Oct '14 17:36
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    faith is the starting point. once you have proof, it is no longer faith.
    I've said this for years, it is what makes Free Will possible. Free Will enables one to make a choice before "knowing" you are right. I've said free will cannot exist after knowledge. If you know God exists, through divine revelation, then you cannot have faith. This is why God doesn't come down and solve all our problems. He doesn't want robots, he wants men who have decided to follow Him without any proof.

    "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." -- John 20:29, KJV

    However, once a man has decided to believe, he is subject to divine revelation without worry, for he has already made his choice. Free will is retained, and proof of God to him doesn't change what he has already chosen to believe.

    If you have proof before you have faith, then yes, free will is damaged. If you have faith before you have proof, then no amount of proof will change your faith, your decision has already been made.

    One constant thing in the Bible is that revelation has always been made to people of faith. (Now Paul was a special example of one who only believed after his vision on the road to Damascus.) When proof of God comes through revelation or other means, you do not lose the faith which drew you to God in the first place. It is reinforced through the revelation to become somewhat more than faith. But the faith that God will honor His promises (salvation, among others) is still faith. This why I say that these who know now have a special kind of faith. It reinforces the knowledge in the same way that knowledge reinforces the faith.
  8. Joined
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    30 Oct '14 00:33
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I dungeons&dragons type games (fantasy rpgs) you can play an adventurer. you can be a fighter, rogue, wizard (and variations of them)


    You can also play cleric. Functionally, this is practically a wizard. The difference though is how the cleric fuels his spells. They are members of their respective religions, and through faith in their deity, he perfor ...[text shortened]... break their deity rules, they will be stripped of it.

    How can faith coexist with knowledge?
    You do realize that....it........is..........make believe, right?
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Oct '14 04:565 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I dungeons&dragons type games (fantasy rpgs) you can play an adventurer. you can be a fighter, rogue, wizard (and variations of them)


    You can also play cleric. Functionally, this is practically a wizard. The difference though is how the cleric fuels his spells. They are members of their respective religions, and through faith in their deity, he perfor ...[text shortened]... break their deity rules, they will be stripped of it.

    How can faith coexist with knowledge?
    Those Clerics are supposed to be Thaumaturgists like Elijah. He cast all kinds of spells...Flame Strike, Charm Animal, Earth Split Asunder, etc.

    Simon Magus had his flight spell dispelled by some Saint or other.

    Saint Patrick could cast Light, Control Weather.

    Moses cast Sticks to Snakes, Part Water.

    Saint Peter could Lay on Hands.

    Saint Martha defeated the Tarasque with Charm Monster.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaumaturgy
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Oct '14 04:56
    Originally posted by whodey
    You do realize that....it........is..........make believe, right?
    It's based on the Bible.
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Oct '14 05:14
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    shamans commune with spirits
    druids commune with nature
    mages draw energy from the universe.

    clerics supposedly draw energy from their faith. they are different
    Real Druids are Celtic polytheist pagans who worship gods like Cernunnos and Taranis.
  12. Cape Town
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    30 Oct '14 05:22
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    that doesn't seem like faith capable of fueling miracles. it's more like submitting an office supply request form to your superior in a corporation.

    edit: also the mechanics state that "requests" for miracles always work, so again it is a matter of "knowing" they will be granting instead of having faith
    Did Jesus require faith when performing miracles?
  13. Joined
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    30 Oct '14 07:34
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It's based on the Bible.
    That doesn't negate Whodey's statement.
  14. Joined
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    30 Oct '14 07:501 edit
    Yikes!

    Are you the group of nerds I see crammed into those little 3rd rate shopping units all wearing World of Warcraft t-shirts and playing with little figurines on a mock-up cardboard battlefield?
  15. Joined
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    30 Oct '14 07:53
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Yikes!

    Are you the group of nerds I see crammed into those little 3rd rate shopping units all wearing World of Warcraft t-shirts and playing with little figurines on a mock-up cardboard battlefield?
    Erm... you are aware that you yourself are currently playing 22 online chess games, right?

    😉
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